What causes T1 spam

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What causes T1 spam

Postby FunkOff » 15 May 2012, 23:17

If anybody here plays ranked or custom 1v1s, you've seen T1 spam. It happens a lot. Pro players, on maps that are large or open, make obscene amounts of tech 1 land factories an ridiculous amount of tech 1 land units. As an example of this, in a recent ranked game on Open Palms, Voodoo built 22 tech 1 land factories and, at one point, had over 600 tech 1 tanks to bare against his opponent, TAG_PEBBLE, who only lost because he has fewer tech 1 factories and, as a direct result, fewer tech 1 units.

We all know that tech 2 and tech 3 units are more efficient than tech 1 units, and can utterly crush them. We also know that tech 1 engineers, which are used to make tech 2 and tech 3 units, are more efficient (per mass cost) than tech 1 land factories at building units. So what's the problem? Why do we still see ridiculous numbers of land factories and ludicrous amounts of tech 1 unit spam?

Thew answer is simple: Because 1 T1 engineer has similar build time to a T1 land factory, of 260 to 300.

What does this mean? How does this influence tech 1 land spam?

It's actually very simple. Assuming a pro has just started playing a 1v1 on a large, open map against another pro. Making units quickly and efficiently will be a deciding factor in map control, resource collection, intelligence collection, and eventually the game. So the player decides that he needs to make a lot of units very quickly. His openning build order has provided him with 1 tech 1 land factory and 4 tech 1 engineers, a total of 40 build power (20 from the land factory and 5 from each engineer). What is the best way to increase build power?

If the engineers assist the land factory in building additional engineers, it will produce build power at a rate of 1 build power every 6.5 seconds. However, if the engineers produce land factories (and the land factory switches over to making units) the player will gave 1 build power every 0.75 seconds. Building factories is slightly less efficient, mass-wise, than building engineers as a means of gaining build power, but it is MUCH, MUCH faster by nearly a whole order of magnitude.

Although T1 engineers can build tech 2 and tech 3 units, tech 1 land factories cannot, so players forced into massive tech 1 spam as the only viable method of building an army quickly. Tech 1 land factories offer 1 build power for only 15 build time, whereas T1 engineers offer 1 build power for 52 build time. Tech 1 land factories are, therefore, roughly 350% faster than tech 1 engineers.

So, what can change this?

The first idea is simple: Reduce the build time of tech 1 engineers by a factor of 4, from 260 to 65. This would allow a player to build 1 build power of T1 engineer in only 13 build time, which is about 12% faster than the land factory, and sufficient to put them into parity with each other.

The second idea is more complex: Allow T1 land factories to directly assist T2 and T3 factories. If T1 land factories were not limited to producing exclusively tech 1 units, most the huge benefit to spamming T1 land units all game long would be eliminated.

The third idea is more complex still: Give factories adjacency bonuses to other factories. Adjacency can take two forms, set bonus and percentage modifier. With a set bonus of -10 and a percentage modifier of +50%, tech 1 land factories would not give bonuses to each other (+50% of 20 mods it to 30, -10 brings it back to 20) but they would give bonuses to higher tech factories: A T2 factory (base 40 build power) with 4 adjacent T1 factories would have the effective build rate of 80, or +100% versus what it has now. A T3 factory (base 60 build power) would have 140 build power, +150% versus what it has now.

The fourth idea is one I've mentioned before: Halve all factory build rates (build power) and halve all unit build times (ones that are built from factories)
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby uberge3k » 15 May 2012, 23:22

FunkOff wrote:So, what can change this?

Why does it need changing? T1 spam is not a bad thing.

You are also incorrect that T1 spam is necessarily better than fast teching, or indeed any other strategy, on a map such as Open Palms. It is one option, which, like others, may or may not be superior depending on the unique context of the specific combination of map, players, and the tactics they choose.
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby FunkOff » 15 May 2012, 23:29

uberge3k wrote:Why does it need changing? T1 spam is not a bad thing.


This is a question/statement about morality. My post only discussed facts.

You are also incorrect that T1 spam is necessarily better than fast teching, or indeed any other strategy, on a map such as Open Palms. It is one option, which, like others, may or may not be superior depending on the unique context of the specific combination of map, players, and the tactics they choose.


This is demonstrably false. T1 land factory spam as a means of T1 land unit spam produces land units at a rate about an order of magnitude higher than any other strategy. Even the fastest possible method of producing 2,000 mass in T2 land units can only do so in about the time it takes to produce 20,000 mass in T1 land units.
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby Zock » 16 May 2012, 00:15

This looked very agreeable until i did read the part with the change ideas..

Also, the part where you want maximum buildpower per time disappears after the early game and gets replaced with the part where you want maximum buildpower per mass.
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby FunkOff » 16 May 2012, 00:24

Zock wrote:Also, the part where you want maximum buildpower per time disappears after the early game and gets replaced with the part where you want maximum buildpower per mass.


You are only partially correct. In the late game, mass USE is what matters, not build rate. The difference is that it is a factory of the build rate/mass cost efficiency and the build time/mass cost ratio. This is why people rush experimentals using T1 engineers to build them: Because T1 engineers building experimental units provides the HIGHEST mass use/mass cost ratio in the game. Nothing else even comes close.

But this thread is about explaining why T1 spam exists and is so powerful... and what changes are possible that would make it less powerful.
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby FunkOff » 16 May 2012, 00:27

Also, zock, the 4th idea you probably would like.

If T1 engineers took only 130 build time, and T1 land factories had 10 build rate, that would put T1 engineers and T1 factories on par with each other in terms of build rate/build time. This way, somebody who tried a fast-tech strategy wouldn't be at a huge disadvantage.
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby Zock » 16 May 2012, 00:30

Buffing engys would have way more negative aspects then positive ones. Going in that direction seems silly to me.

Buff T2 fac buildpower to nerf t1 spam, if something.
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby Lu_Xun_17 » 16 May 2012, 00:47

lol funk if i understood well, you realised there are currently X strategies viable on land maps, and you'd rather the game to get X-1 ones? :ugeek:
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby FunkOff » 16 May 2012, 00:48

Zock wrote:Buffing engys would have way more negative aspects then positive ones.


What negative effects do you think a reduction in T1 engineer build time would have?

Buff T2 fac buildpower to nerf t1 spam, if something.


By how much?
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Re: What causes T1 spam

Postby uberge3k » 16 May 2012, 03:51

Lu_Xun_17 wrote:lol funk if i understood well, you realised there are currently X strategies viable on land maps, and you'd rather the game to get X-1 ones? :ugeek:

Pretty much.

T1-T2 land is perhaps one of the most well balanced areas of the game. Fast T2 is viable on pretty much every map as it is - buffing it further would surely make it OP.
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