Balancing team, be careful!

Post here any idea about current FA Balance.
REMINDER : This is NOT a community balance forum. The thread ideas won't be used in a patch.
Forum rules REMINDER : This is NOT a community balance forum. The thread ideas won't be used in a patch.

Balancing team, be careful!

Postby Kryo » 18 Sep 2011, 11:35

I might not be a pro like Funkoff or any other top 10 player, but I am not a noob, and my understanding of game mechanisms is better than my performance in realising them :D

I also have some experience with community balancing projects. Once I played Earth 2160 online. This game had the worst official balancing of all games I ever played. BUT there was the rebalancing project, and as only a few players stayed at the game online, nearly everybody (about 95%) of all players played with it. It was good, and the game was fun to play.

But then suddenly the team started to change things too fast. There was a fourth faction, that was totally imbalanced, and therefore never played. when the team decided to start balancing this 4th faction, they changed too many existing things at once, making the community split in those who played the newest rebalancing version, and those who wanted to stay with an older version. Finally the game died (as supreme commander beta was born :D, thats how history goes).

FAF doesnt have 95% of all players. (Talking of online players, not of singleplayer). So the first priority must be to get nearly all gamers to FAF, especially those who play often.
What will happen if FAF now changes too many things (as we talk in those forums discussions)? We might know that most of those changes are good to the game, as most of them who write here in forums know the mechanisms behind the game, and understand how to play correctly. But even then, some changes are controversal.

The danger of too many changes in a fast pace is, that some will decide, they rather want to stay with the old version at GPGnet, because they may not understand why some things are changed, or because they understand, and it does not comply with their understanding of how the game should be.

In my opinion it is really necessary to do this balancing steps slowly and to get more people than 10 in the balancing discussions, so we can really see what the majority thinks. The decisions finally need to be made by the top players, but the opinions of many players need to be heard.

Dont OVERbalance the game! This is very dangerous.
Just keep this in mind.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby AdmiralZeech » 18 Sep 2011, 11:42

I like change, but I agree with you too.

Thats why I prefer FAF to have a "classic" edition, which is pretty close to vanilla but with as much bugfixes as possible.

And then a FAF Edition, which is a new game that tries to be the best RTS ever and doesnt care about vanilla. (so very large and fundamental problems like exponential economy can be looked at.) This is like the DoTA / Counterstrike of SupCom.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby Ze_PilOt » 18 Sep 2011, 11:44

I can answer that threadwith my posts here :
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35
and here
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33

I'm not planning any single balance change until every bug is fixed, and with a rotation for balance changes of about 2 months between patches. I think that's the minimal time to be sure that a change was good, and not lost players.
But as any changes will not goes beyond the 5% barrier, I will be really progressive.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby Moritz » 18 Sep 2011, 13:30

I complete agree with Kryo, I wish FAF uses 3603 mod version 4, that has no extra balance changes from 3603.]

I also agree with this post from Lu_Xun_17.

Adding ship wreckages is a BIG balance change for FAF that should never be done, I know the alone mod exist, so why not add the mod itself in faforever.faf so that players choose wether to enable/disable it in mod manager?

Let's play GPG 3603 balances, with all bugfixes integrated, finish FAF, get most players from GPGnet, after all that is done, we can think about changing FA gameplay and balance (maybe in a new game class like suggested).

GPGnet still got 5 times more players online/playing than FAF, we should revert that first.

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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby Ze_PilOt » 18 Sep 2011, 14:10

We won't bring more people from GPGnet that are NOT using halcyon and/or 3603 mod by keeping FAF at the exact same state as GPGNet.

And about Luxun post, I will repeat myself : a player stops playing FA 2 years ago. He tried, don't like the changes, and leave. But why is he coming back in the first place if he want the same than GPGNet ? (it's still exists).

FAF is aiming a broader audience, and will be massively advertised once RC1 is reach.

We will bring new players with :
- a bug free game.
- Interesting new features (ship wreck is one of them)
- Galactic war.
- Or even the discovery of the game !

Let's face it, the players that are not already on FAF doesn't care at all of the balance or bugs. They just want to play their seton or phantom game, and nothing in FAF will make change their mind. I don't really care about these players, but if they are interested in Galactic War, Experimental Wars, Nomads, Co-op games and easier way to find peoples for their phantom games, then they will come.

Balance is really not a matter for them.

The worst thing that can happen is splitting the game into too many gamemodes with too few players.
TA Spring can do that, but they have thousands of players. In the future maybe.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby AdmiralZeech » 18 Sep 2011, 14:40

I agree that we cant spread the playerbase too thin. But I think Classic+FAF edition is the optimal/minimum number of versions. Having just one version will result in many arguments and compromises between those that want change vs. those that dont, and noone will be happy. We're already starting to see such tensions in the balance subforum.

I think there is definitely a fanbase for "GPG Official Balance", the people who look down upon "Community Balance Mods" and so forth. I think they will be very happy with FAF as a superior platform to GPGNet, to play the official balance.

With "FAF Edition", you want the freedom to make changes that you think necessary, without "SupComservatives" arguing, sniping and getting in the way. Having a seperate version allows you to demonstrate better gameplay and win people over, rather than alienating them from the start and being accused of forcing the changes down the throats of people who want to enjoy the other benefits of FAF.

Besides, I thought FAF was all about mod ladder support and stuff. Why have the feature and then only have 1 version? Surely 2 is the minimum number to demonstrate and test such functionality?
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby Ze_PilOt » 18 Sep 2011, 14:44

Again, this a forum for sending ideas. That's not meaning they will be integrated or even tested.

Here is a list of the changes for the next months :

- Fix the last bugs in the game
- Find a way to make useless units usefull (SCU are the main focus here).

No (other) balance change is planned before a long time.

I've also stated that I'm okay to include a 3599 mod with the default installation. But I won't do it :)

I'm also okay to do more 1v1 ladders, but we don't have enough people now to justify the work.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby AdmiralZeech » 18 Sep 2011, 14:54

Well, I like more changes, but I stfu and wait and see what the short term changes will bring :)

Fixing useless units might change the gameplay a lot, so who knows.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby FunkOff » 18 Sep 2011, 14:55

Also kryo, I played 2160 but not with the balance patch... and yes I only played it for a short time because the balance was simply awful.
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Re: Balancing team, be careful!

Postby Ze_PilOt » 18 Sep 2011, 15:06

AdmiralZeech wrote:Well, I like more changes, but I stfu and wait and see what the short term changes will bring :)

Fixing useless units might change the gameplay a lot, so who knows.


Don't worry, changes will come, but as you say, as mods.

Maybe I'm not very clear.
We have two differents things :
- FA "patched" - It's the default game, the one you've got when you launch a game. That version will have mainly only bugfixes and very slight balance changes (described above)
- FA mods - They are on top of FA. The user decide to use them or not. But as it will use FA "patched" as a base version, they will have all the features and bugs removed.

The "official balance team" will ONLY change FA patched. And not that often or drastically.


Then anyone can do a mod. Some mods will be "featured".

It's actually the case for Nomads and Experimental Wars.
That's mean that they will have their own way to launch (no need to activate a mod, everybody got them, they are auto-updated), leader boards, ladder, ... Anything their owner want (if it's possible in the features of FAF).

In resume, they will act like FA "patched", except that they have their own tab.

Now, someone can make a 3599 mod for exemple. It will be treated like any mod, with no special ladder or anything.

I can distribute these mods for everyone by default, so they are updated and easy to launch.
BUT they will not be featured (no ladder, ....)

I won't "feature" these mods automatically. Anyone has his ideas for balance, and I don't think we want 20 ladders.
BUT if any of these balance mods has success, then it can become featured at some point.

Then you have normal mods, not included in FAF and not featured obviously, like GPGNet mods.
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