Forged Alliance Forever

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-06-10T02:07:55+02:00

Seraphim acu tac should keep the faster speed and still have the blast radius but cost more, kinda like a 2.5 tac missile launcher.

Thanks for the uef sacu nerf, i think the sera nerf was slightly to much, 3/4 damage and full energy cost maybe?
Othuum could hover but like the sniper bot not be able to hit the water ( it would be best if it could go in shallow water, giving it the ability to chase cybran t2 destroyer back in the water, but not continue) it would also make sense to make it super slow on water, or just go underwater regardless of hover.
nuke bal is pretty good
what changes to the ythothia exactly?
something really crazy would be to give hover an alt mode, 1/4 speed but stealth (this is really just for gameplay deepening, not bal)
cybran should have worst t2 amphib cause it has best t2 navy 17% speed increase on wagner maybe?
lazer fix is awesome
cybran sub more cost affective then sera t3, which is not right by any stretch of the imagination, you don't have to buff see sub, if you increase underwater view rang on cruisers globally
plz make sera region work for allies
increase hoplite muzzle velocity
it would be slightly better if torpedo defense structures only did 50% damage against hover or something like that, so it can be used as a counter against navy turtle while not being broken.
also if sera shields gets a buff other doesn't need one, cause then it is like aeon t2: lots of shields= best t3 force in game but power stall= steam rolled by any other t3 or you can buff both but only slightly, say othuum rang equalized to that of the top gun and sera shield cost effectiveness buffed but not so it is quite on par with aeon t2.
also change how shield assist and move system works, if you tell 10 othuums and 4 shields to attach a gc 10 (curse you impossible ingame measurements) spider bots away the shields will run ahead and be destroyed by the time othuums catch up, same with aeon and uef t2 shield. (although pillars can keep up for the most part.
also if a shield is told to assist a unit it should stay as close as possible to give support, not trait behind. and if multiple shields are told to assist a unit they should shuttle around it, not spread out like tanks do
thats all i think, tell me what ya'll think

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 10 Jun 2015, 02:07

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-06-03T18:06:50+02:00

it seems chrono dampener is not quite working correctly:

it doesn't stun ally units
that's fine i guess
it doesn't stun enemy units
that's not fine i guess

replay ID: 3501639

also i get this in the log:

Code:: warning: Error running lua script: ...gramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\sim\unit.lua(4622): access to nonexistent global variable "GetTrueEnemiesInSphere" stack traceback: [C]: in function `error' ...alliance\gamedata\mohodata.scd\lua\system\config.lua(53): in function <...alliance\gamedata\mohodata.scd\lua\system\config.lua:52> ...gramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\sim\unit.lua(4622): in function `AddBuff' ...ed alliance\gamedata\mohodata.scd\lua\sim\weapon.lua(434): in function `DoOnFireBuffs' ...forged alliance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\aeonweapons.lua(774): in function <...forged alliance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\aeonweapons.lua:765> debug: Loading module '\000/effects/entities/debrismisc09/debrismisc09_script.lua\000' debug: Loading module '\000/lua/ui/dialogs/createunit.lua\000' debug: Loading module '\000/lua/ui/dialogs/createunitfilters.lua\000' info: syncing max ping markers: \00015 warning: Warning: Unable to find file: /textures/ui/aeon/icons/units/avataruel0001_icon.dds warning: stack traceback: warning: ...ramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\ui\uiutil.lua(360): in function `UIFile' warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(451): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:442> warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(499): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:497> warning: Warning: Unable to find file: /textures/ui/aeon/icons/units/avatarunit_icon.dds warning: stack traceback: warning: ...ramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\ui\uiutil.lua(360): in function `UIFile' warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(451): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:442> warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(499): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:497> warning: Error running lua script: ...nce\mods\reminder\notificationscripts\acu_low_hp.lua(43): Game object has been destroyed stack traceback: [C]: in function `GetHealth' ...nce\mods\reminder\notificationscripts\acu_low_hp.lua(43): in function `triggerNotification' ...ed alliance\mods\reminder\modules\checkandnotify.lua(63): in function `triggerNotificationChecks' ...ed alliance\mods\reminder\modules\checkandnotify.lua(31): in function <...ed alliance\mods\reminder\modules\checkandnotify.lua:16> warning: Warning: Unable to find file: /textures/ui/aeon/icons/units/avatarunit_icon.dds warning: stack traceback: warning: ...ramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\ui\uiutil.lua(360): in function `UIFile' warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(451): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:442> warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(499): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:497> warning: Warning: Unable to find file: /textures/ui/aeon/icons/units/avataruel0001_icon.dds warning: stack traceback: warning: ...ramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\ui\uiutil.lua(360): in function `UIFile' warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(451): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:442> warning: ...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua(499): in function <...iance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\ui\dialogs\createunit.lua:497> debug: Loading module '\000/units/uel0104/uel0104_script.lua\000' warning: Error running lua script: ...gramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\sim\unit.lua(4622): access to nonexistent global variable "GetTrueEnemiesInSphere" stack traceback: [C]: in function `error' ...alliance\gamedata\mohodata.scd\lua\system\config.lua(53): in function <...alliance\gamedata\mohodata.scd\lua\system\config.lua:52> ...gramdata\faforever\gamedata\lua.nx2\lua\sim\unit.lua(4622): in function `AddBuff' ...ed alliance\gamedata\mohodata.scd\lua\sim\weapon.lua(434): in function `DoOnFireBuffs' ...forged alliance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\aeonweapons.lua(774): in function <...forged alliance\gamedata\lua.scd\lua\aeonweapons.lua:765> debug: Loading module '\000/modules/keymapping.lua\000' debug: Loading module '\000/units/ueb1103/ueb1103_script.lua\000' debug: Loading module '\000/lua/ui/dialogs/score.lua\000' debug: Loading module '\000/lua/ui/dialogs/hotstats.lua\000' debug: Loading module '\000/lua/ui/dialogs/myeffecthelpers.lua\000' info: syncing max ping markers: \00015 info: GPGNET: setting nat handler to 0x00000000 info: CNetTCPBuf::Read(): recv() failed: WSAEINTR info: Run time: 0h04m02s

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 03 Jun 2015, 18:06

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-26T14:17:54+02:00

A single Mavor can't break through heavy shielding. And that's at small range (slightly more than T3 arty range). Styrbjorn has to make a second Mavor. Which is kind of ridiculous in itself.

https://youtu.be/WWci6lSy8MI?t=42m1s

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 26 May 2015, 14:17

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-24T13:45:32+02:00

See, I guess I'll bring this up again...

What I would LIKE to do (Yet accept that this is too far, this is unlikely to be allowed by the community) is use a script I have which makes the Mavor "Home in". I'd actually INCREASE the cost of the unit so it's truly the most expensive thing in the game, to 300,000 Mass. Then I'd lower the accuracy of the unit overall, but with every shot, it would home in to a much, much better, sniper-like final accuracy, over the course of 8-12 shots. There is nothing in the game which can resist a pinpoint bombardment like that. This is my vision of what Mavor was always intended to be; "Strategic Assassination Artillery".

So the current value is FiringRandomness = 0.22. I'd change it to 0.31, and have it reduce by 0.3 per shot to a limit of 0.01. Coupled with surrounding T3 PGens, this would result in the target having to try to resist a barrage of 16000 damage projectiles coming one every 4 seconds or so, able to hit it while moving, at any range. There's nothing in the game which can stop it, and for 300,000 Mass, I think that's right.

If you think this is a good approach, please say. I'd absolutely love it.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 24 May 2015, 13:45

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-24T11:46:59+02:00

From my gaming experience i see novaxes being built far more than both mavor and duke. The reason are: they are cheap, will help to protect yourself from mobile unit attacks; will compite with arty in turtle wars.
Mavor(if it's being finished) is strong experimental cause it needs no trave time and can breack through multiple shields per shot because of better damage and aoe values(and ofc this damage is done immediatly so shields have no time to regen or get shield repaired which is huge problem for both salvation and novax) than novax(but 8 satelites have more damage per shot than mavor). But the mavor needs to actually hit targets on big distance. Have you ever played cancer-flat? Mavor accuracy is terrible on 40x40 maps. You'll get lucky if at least 1/5 of your shots will hit the target. I once had 2 mavors surrounded with pdens trying to kill paragon on other corner of the map (40x40). My opponent managed to build 2 more paragons for the time it took me to kill 1st one.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 24 May 2015, 11:46

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-24T11:24:54+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
As for Mavor, damage aside it NEEDS an accuracy buff.

Simply not true, based on evidence from real games. Replay 3446967 is one with a Mavor (52 mins long if you are interested). It also includes A Yolona and a Salvation, neither of which ended the game.

In fact, the Mavor killed the Salvation within 60 secs of it starting to fire, despite the Salvation already firing on the Mavor 30 secs prior to that.

Mavors only occasionally get built in games I play in, while Novax never get built. The reason for that is that Novax spam is not a good counter for either Duke or Mavor.

In the OP the presentation of a lot of the changes really grinds my gears, the Mavor change is a case in point. You've presented the change with a lot of bias, you're immediately implying it isn't worth the "stupendous mass and risk cost". If what we're actually trying to do is an evidence led analysis of balance, can we leave the hyperbole out please? (same goes for the rest of the discussion)

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 24 May 2015, 11:24

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-24T02:20:53+02:00

You have to align the shields so they interlap the thing you want to protect. It's tricksy.

As for Mavor, damage aside it NEEDS an accuracy buff. Inside Duke range, either if you build in base or within a reasonable travel and protection distance on a bigger map, Duke wins. As soon as you go to the only place Duke does not win, long range, Mavor doesn't work here either: It's too inaccurate. Yes, it's more accurate than a Duke, but once you are firing across a 41K map it's utterly useless. The total area it hits is bigger than that of a Scathis at max range, with smaller splash. If your whole argument for Mavor being fine is that it's effective outside of reasonable T3 Arty range, this shuts that argument down; It's just not.

I'd rather build Novax any day of the week. Slower to get there sure, but much, much, MUCH surer of doing their bloody job.

Also Softly, Yolona is not like other Nukes in that assisting it actually makes a big difference. Given the eco, you can spam YO a lot faster than once per minute. Additionally, one stratbomber snipe or similar against an enemy trying to hold out, as soon as there is a chink in the armour, their entire base is dead in the next hit. With Mavor, you can make as many chinks as you want, it's still up to the RNG whether it hits the right spot before the chink is closed again.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 24 May 2015, 02:20

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-24T01:46:57+02:00

keyser wrote:
actually you can block satelite crash with shield.

Can send me a replay with it? Cause I just made a test game and they didn't.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 24 May 2015, 01:46

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-23T23:06:48+02:00

actually you can block satelite crash with shield.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 23 May 2015, 23:06

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-23T21:39:01+02:00

There is enother problem here. 2 novaxes (56k mass) will kill paragon; 3 (84k mass) will kill mavor; 4(112k mass) will kill yolona. Just because their crash goes through shields. Even if game ender is done on 81x81 map, 4 novaxes will probably be already above it. Can novax crash damage be more, like 6k, but be blocked by shields? Also would be nice if it would have awesome crash animation and have explosion at the end; did RK make something like this on his mod?

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 23 May 2015, 21:39

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-23T19:07:35+02:00

Paragon should be nerfed maybe, but mavor is strong enough. No game ender is viable if the bases are within t3 arty range. Just check out some of gala's setons games for mavors.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 23 May 2015, 19:07

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-23T16:46:26+02:00

If I am within duke range, I would never ever build a Mavor. Even if you increased damage by 10x it still wouldn't be a good choice, so this clearly isn't a good range to balance it at.

Now supposing we're outside of t3 arty range, then the travel time of the Novax to the target is about 3 mins. If we assume a mass income ~1000 being spent on exps at this stage, then only one Novax will have arrived by the time the Mavor is finished (at which point the Mavor wins resoundingly).

By the time a Mavor is being built, its perfectly reasonable to assume there's been some significant conflicts and so large amounts of reclaim will easily provide that level of income.

Comparing Mavor to Yolona now, I would prefer Mavor in an engagement against an opponent of similar or larger eco size. A Yolona takes 1 min to make a nuke, and an SMD takes 4 mins to make an anti-nuke, so if I was to make a Yolona the opponent could completely neutralise it by constructing 8 SMDs at a mass drain of 120 (initial investment of 60k mass). If you had a Mavor however, its infeasible to defend large parts of your base against it (even defending a single target is extremely difficult).

Normally the decision on what game-ender to make is decided by what faction you happen to have to hand however.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 23 May 2015, 16:46

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-23T12:47:03+02:00

Softly wrote:
Mavor change is silly, its already well worth the mass cost.

are you sure about that?
could you please send the replay ID?

because if you look at the unit stats you see that:
1 mavor is the same price in mass as:
8 novaxes
3 dukes
3 emissaries
1 salvation
http://content.faforever.com/faf/unitsD ... 02,UEB2302

tests show that on a short range the mavor is indeed very capable in killing a single target - on longer range it still works, but less effectively.
The emmisary is indeed less capable of destroying single targets than the mavor under the same circumstances.
However:
8 novaxes destroy the same target in 2 salvos.
3 dukes destroy the same target at the same speed as the mavor.
3 emissaries destroy the same target in 2 salvos.

so really it seems the only advantage of the experimental arty is its longer range. Its actualy effectiveness per mass is about the same, maybe a bit worse than the alternatives.

However the cheaper units have a huge advantage: you have have one of them working when the mavor is 30% built.
So i would always build t3 arty instead of mavor (or emissary for that matter) unless i have a paragon.

for reference: all arty tests were done without adjacency bonus, it gives the same 40% reload time discount for all arty anyway, when fully surrounded by t3 power. replay id: 3458033

And now a question for you Softly: Would you rather build a mavor or a yolona given the choice? and in which situations would you choose what?

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 23 May 2015, 12:47

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-23T05:46:27+02:00

What do you guys think about the land balance? I personally think it is kind of boring that some factions are just straight better then others with their superior range units. Auroras are o.k. imho because they are paper, but bricks, percies and ilshevohs just seem too strong. Especially percies and bricks could handle a speed debuff imho, that's what loyalists and titans are for (especially titans are really rarely built).

Statistics: Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe — 23 May 2015, 05:46

Re: [e] Balance Research

2015-05-22T19:05:34+02:00

Mavor change is silly, its already well worth the mass cost.

Before people start complaining about how bad it is compared to salvation, I just ran some tests and found that its better against a single high value target under multiple shields. (Significantly better, if you ignore shot flight time [~20secs] it took 25 secs to kill a t3 arty under 3 t3 shields and 3 t2 shields compared to salvation's 55 secs)

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 22 May 2015, 19:05