Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-07-20T00:24:58+02:00

Yes, you'r not playing gap.

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 20 Jul 2020, 00:24

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-07-19T18:14:08+02:00

I'm still confused how hives are the issue here. Am I missing something?

Statistics: Posted by RedX — 19 Jul 2020, 18:14

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-07-19T16:21:50+02:00

Ok detail oriented fix:

Nerf nuke loading by just hives by .8

also set hard limit on massive hives on single units like experimental production and shield bracing. I don't have a value in mind, but something reasonable to keep this feature in line with other factions due to the clumping/movement issue with engineers and drone assist.

Statistics: Posted by Spy_Emanciator — 19 Jul 2020, 16:21

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-30T11:48:35+02:00

If you get a nuke out that early then your doing it just by setting up the build start early at the cost of eco and production (much less assistance) this puts you way behind on the eco curve later on if it happens not to win the game for you immediately.

The issue again is that cybran can both eco, and hit a semi-macro nuke timing and keep slamming out nukes over and over while ecoing, where no other faction can both eco, expand production, and hit early timings all at the same time.

So my point is that Hives effect on nuke launchers is currently broken and needs a look. It simply not possible to exponentially expand your production with other factions for the reasons i listed earlier, and the self build power of upgrades are added problem on top of this.

Used to be t3 engies for seraphim had production bonus and that seemed to keep this ok, only aeon was really behind. Thats balance, what we have now is not.

What happens too much on dual gap is that the nuke rusher kills the land side of the map both smd (if one was attempted) and 1 or 2 eco spots and then the only option for them is production drop from the eco side over to the land side to cover. This rarely happens as most people are drooling on themselves on this map (que dual gap hatred memes) and the top just continually gets nuked over and over again until a conventional attack comes with 2x eco compared to the other side.

Air players have a window to cover but the issue is they also need to eco to keep up with the rapidly eco-focused meta. Used to be I would just get 3 t3 mexes on top air and then get smd no matter what, load it then continue ecoing, but that couldn't hold up to peoples eco only builds. So you have to scout for the nuke. With hive wall, the time from start to launch is just too fast. Its not possible to have enough t3 spy planes going out (as t1 will not get far enough) to hit the timing consistently to guarantee a reaction. Either your gimping your eco to play safe or your gimping your asf count, either way all your opponent is doing is being one faction. So again your doing unreasonable jugging just to counter someones factional pick that already had t1 advantages, t2 naval advantages, experimental rush advantages, ras printing advantages, and they are red which is a cool color. So FML trying to play random faction.

Statistics: Posted by Spy_Emanciator — 30 Jun 2020, 11:48

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-12T06:06:48+02:00

Spy_Emanciator wrote:
Check then endless myriad of replays to prove it.

I watched your last 5 Dual Gap replays. The fastest nuke timing by anyone in those games was 20:10.

In my first try without getting T3 mex, I launched in 18:25, while also getting around 2.5k less reclaim than the 20:10 timing (replay ID: #11932046). And my build was pretty inefficient. You could probably get it down to 17:30 or so. If you have a replay where someone launches in under 18 minutes while also getting 4 T3 mexes and hives, feel free to share it.

Statistics: Posted by Deribus — 12 Jun 2020, 06:06

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-12T00:42:47+02:00

The optimum dual gap nuke involves 4 t3 mexes and 4 t2 mexes all capped and production scaling. I've not seen someone land the missile faster with less mass than that. Maybe 3 if your pushing it, most of the mass goes into production right after the launcher is completed.

Check then endless myriad of replays to prove it.

Statistics: Posted by Spy_Emanciator — 12 Jun 2020, 00:42

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-09T04:06:20+02:00

Spy_Emanciator wrote:
I'd like it to be possible for all factions to get a nuke off on a rush timing (eg 4 t3 mex, then rush nuke out with optimum production scaling.

If you're getting T3 mexes before the launcher you aren't rushing a nuke. For the price of 4 T3 mexes you can get a nuke launcher + 30% of a missile

Statistics: Posted by Deribus — 09 Jun 2020, 04:06

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-07T14:01:59+02:00

Yes the issues is in the reinvestment potential of hives vs other forms. I'd like it to be possible for all factions to get a nuke off on a rush timing (eg 4 t3 mex, then rush nuke out with optimum production scaling).

The typical style for seraphrim/aeon is using t2 factories to build t1 engineers (either 2 or 3) to assist factories or build experimentals, but with nuke there literally isn't enough space for engineer range to assist the nuke. This leaves you fast building t2 or t3 engineers and with the roll-off timings and the time building these extra factories, its just not possible to match the cybran timing. The unassisted production of hives upgrading themselves seems to be the issue and I think either a time nerf or a production nerf on the hives could remedy this without really changing much else.

Statistics: Posted by Spy_Emanciator — 07 Jun 2020, 14:01

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-03T21:19:32+02:00

his discusion kind of miss a point.

Why is hive good compare to kennel is that kennel drones fall down by AA, and build new cost mass, energy and time.
And because kennel have 20br for 550m hive have 25br for 350m, so its about double effectiveness.

So hive is twice as good as kennel. But both of them are still worse as engineer. So I guess its fine.

Yes, this is the point. Hives have a limited range, whereas kennels have essentially unlimited range, although they move fairly slowly. For the cost I think kennels are almost always a bad idea, but hives are only a bit more expensive than engineers (5 t1 engies of build power for the cost of 6.7 engies), and are so much more convenient because pathfinding in this game is Supreme Garbage, that they are very nice to use. Because you don't need to use factory build power or lose time for the roll off of engineers, or time for engineers to move into position, they do allow you to ramp up build power much faster, and also stack a lot more bp in a compact area than t1 engies (and you often wont end up with a whole lot of t3 engineers that would be similarly compact, but still less compact that fully upgraded hives). The slightly higher mass cost isn't much of a downside to building them, so long as you will continue to have a use for this immobile build power in that location.

Overall, I wouldn't say that they are OP. Maybe making them cost 7.5 t1 engies for 5 t1 engies of build power would be a small, but an appropriate nerf. But to me, the real problem to fix is pathfinding.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 03 Jun 2020, 21:19

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-03T17:02:03+02:00

In dune 2 units were moving faster when you were looking at them (source http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/DOS/Dune2.html). Maybe aeon or seraphim can hijack this technology and make an eye (similar to Rhiza eye) that would look at units and buildings and boost their BP

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 03 Jun 2020, 17:02

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-06-03T00:46:27+02:00

This discusion kind of miss a point.

Why is hive good compare to kennel is that kennel drones fall down by AA, and build new cost mass, energy and time.
And because kennel have 20br for 550m hive have 25br for 350m, so its about double effectiveness.

So hive is twice as good as kennel. But both of them are still worse as engineer. So I guess its fine.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 03 Jun 2020, 00:46

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-05-29T07:14:00+02:00

UnorthodoxBox wrote:
Maybe I am not understanding what was written, but is it being said that observation causes differences in sim speed?

Observation will cause the wave function to collapse and compromise reality.

Statistics: Posted by mr_blastman — 29 May 2020, 07:14

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-05-29T06:53:30+02:00

But what if Gap suffers from time dilation?

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 29 May 2020, 06:53

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-05-29T06:31:23+02:00

biass wrote:
It's best if we just leave it up to OP to provide video evidence. We could also check for errors in his hardware this way.

Perfect !

Statistics: Posted by Uveso — 29 May 2020, 06:31

Re: Hives need a nerf

2020-05-29T06:23:33+02:00

I can!

You shouldn't be playing FAF in your hospital. You could get distracted by the heart rate monitor in the back and lose focus.

It's best if we just leave it up to OP to provide video evidence. We could also check for errors in his hardware this way.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 29 May 2020, 06:23