Forged Alliance Forever

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-02-02T22:06:18+02:00

it competes with 40k hp shield,

no it does not because

1. 2nd shield is 25k hp
2. 2nd shield is way more expensive, so it rather competes with the 8k hp 1st shield
3. its meant for t2 and early t3 stage, so in current form it has its uses and is not even intended to compete with 2nd shield

Statistics: Posted by Turinturambar — 02 Feb 2020, 22:06

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-02-02T21:57:01+02:00

Is there any plan to buff "chrono dampener on aoen acu" it competes with 40k hp shield, but it does not affect experimental/air so very risky to use in late-game. Other comms upgrades are useful vs experimental (cybran cloaking, regen & hp buff on sera, nuke on uef). Aeon's - does nothing, if it won't ever affect experimentals maybe replace it with somethign else ?

Statistics: Posted by techmind_ — 02 Feb 2020, 21:57

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-31T23:00:30+02:00

MrTBSC wrote:
weren´t they made in this patch to be more antiarmy?
in that case the question should be how easy or difficult they are to use in that area ..

imo beatles should not be just used for comesnipes, they should be either used as antiarmy or as a anti economy snipeoption but for any of these they need the propper useability ..
i would even say that in case of them beinga ecosnipeoption with their old damage maybe comms should get a specific damagereduction from them, or beatles just ot be able to drop on a commanders head ..

in case they stay as an antiarmy option maybe friendlyfire with other beatles can be disabled (preferably no friendly fire at all but that might be too strong) ....

They are 500 hp and run in pack because they are too small, maybe something like 10% friendly fire dmg could work, so you can run them as 5-a pack (2-3 will die anyway). And 5 speed is not that good vs army. They should be more mass-efficient that regular t2 unit, cause otherwise its just eco-negative to use them(single t2 unit will kil them in ~3 seconds it takes 5 speed unit to get in the face of a unit assuming 32 average range of t2, its even worse vs mml). And t2 'tanky' units have 1500+ hp.

For economy snipe they are only worth vs unprotected firebase, but radar/scout will counter them and t1 engi can build t1 pd in 40 seconds (~ time to get into default 200 radar range).
They cost more than pd1/pd2 so even not that great idea to use them on pd itself. Maybe 20-30% damage VS PD could be effective 'anti-buildings' buff. (Using army is still superior to defend bases and they can be good if they kill aoe worth of t2 units). Also adding upkeep free stealth could work as 'anti-eco-buildings' buff.

Statistics: Posted by techmind_ — 31 Jan 2020, 23:00

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-02-06T03:24:01+02:00

techmind_ wrote:
Firebeetles need mass cost reduction.

Why:
Lets compare them to mercies
-5 speed, land not air, +50 less mass, -4500 energy.

But requires a t2 air(13k energy, 330 metal) to get to some place, so actually +1k energy, +33 metal(if we load 10 in t2 cybran trasport).

So essentially -17 mass, -3500 energy for land based 2x slower mercy with 60% of damage.
~3-4 will die from each 10 to auto-attacks from com or t1 pd anyway.

Actually overcharging them will kill all of them (2500 worth of mass) for 5k energy, which is insanely cost-effective. Only overcharging experimental is more mass-efficient per hp spent per mass (and you NEVER want to use acu for that).

So countering com-snipe is not that hard if player actually looks at his comm on map.

You need 10+ to 1-hit kill com, so essentially you have to commit 2 transports worth of beetles to com-snipe (20 beetles, 10k ehp). And that is 5k mass, dropping 8 t2 rhinos(same 5k mass) will get you 690 dps on spot so ~20 seconds to kill com, it will take you LESS time and those tanks would have 16k ehp (+6k). And those rhinos even if you have to drop them early can still act as raiding force, beetles - can't.

So they need -30-40% mass cost reduction to be useful and cost-efficient vs "mercy" and "dropping regular t2 tanks".
+ You lose mass if they do dmg, but for regular units you don't so maybe even less mass cost.

weren´t they made in this patch to be more antiarmy?
in that case the question should be how easy or difficult they are to use in that area ..

imo beetles should not be just used for commsnipes, they should be either used as antiarmy or as a anti economy snipeoption but for any of these they need the propper useability ..
i would even say that in case of them being a ecosnipeoption with their old damage maybe comms should get a specific damagereduction from them, or beetles just not be able to be dropped on a commander´s head ..

in case they stay as an antiarmyoption maybe friendlyfire with other beetles can be disabled (preferably no friendly fire at all but that might be too strong) ....

advena wrote:
As for math, the most significant change in this patch is Blase cost change. Now it's dps*hp/mass^2 stat is 1,62
For comparison:
Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)
Old Blase is 1,085
Old Wagner is 1,64
New Wagner is 1,36

imo wagner should get a slight costreduction for how much HP it lost ... it´s on the same cost of the rhino while heavily lacking the surviveability even if it´s a amphibius unit and as such can avoid damage being moved into water that way, i think it´s way too much .. mass cost should be around 275 with aproppriate powercost, not sure about productiontime .. it´s still quite strong in alphadamage and versatile to use with rhinos imo ..

Statistics: Posted by MrTBSC — 31 Jan 2020, 20:38

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-31T14:53:27+02:00

Firebeetles need mass cost reduction.

Why:
Lets compare them to mercies
-5 speed, land not air, +50 less mass, -4500 energy.

But requires a t2 air(13k energy, 330 metal) to get to some place, so actually +1k energy, +33 metal(if we load 10 in t2 cybran trasport).

So essentially -17 mass, -3500 energy for land based 2x slower mercy with 60% of damage.
~3-4 will die from each 10 to auto-attacks from com or t1 pd anyway.

Actually overcharging them will kill all of them (2500 worth of mass) for 5k energy, which is insanely cost-effective. Only overcharging experimental is more mass-efficient per hp spent per mass (and you NEVER want to use acu for that).

So countering com-snipe is not that hard if player actually looks at his comm on map.

You need 10+ to 1-hit kill com, so essentially you have to commit 2 transports worth of beetles to com-snipe (20 beetles, 10k ehp). And that is 5k mass, dropping 8 t2 rhinos(same 5k mass) will get you 690 dps on spot so ~20 seconds to kill com, it will take you LESS time and those tanks would have 16k ehp (+6k). And those rhinos even if you have to drop them early can still act as raiding force, beetles - can't.

So they need -30-40% mass cost reduction to be useful and cost-efficient vs "mercy" and "dropping regular t2 tanks".
+ You lose mass if they do dmg, but for regular units you don't so maybe even less mass cost.

Statistics: Posted by techmind_ — 31 Jan 2020, 14:53

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-30T15:26:57+02:00

Yes it's a complete shutdown of a discussion about cybran t2 because it's not bad at all, quite the opposite in fact

Fun fact stun still goes through shields on the very edge, and it's anyway impossible to micro them 100% perfect so that units are constantly covered

Also 10000000000 medusa does omega damage to shields and considering they cost literally only 1 more mass than a lab, this makes them ridiculously efficient vs shields

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 30 Jan 2020, 15:26

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-29T21:37:44+02:00

TheKoopa wrote:
Neither of those units are bad, and not only that but the rhino is supplemented by the medusa in the t2 stage

I hate the medusa argument, it's a bad argument and it's always used to shutdown discussion of cybran t2.
Firstly, when compared to the Ilsie and Pillar, yes, they are both bad, objectively they are worse than those units mass for mass, and the perform even worse in real battlefield situations.
Secondly, the medusa argument is flawed because medusa are only good in the t2 stage against other cybrans.
Aeon and UEF have t2 shields, which negate the stun. Aurora die to 1 arty shot anyway making the stun useless, and pillars operate with too many units for the stun to truly matter.
To suggest that rhino + medusa is better than ilsie + zthuee is utter madness.

Statistics: Posted by LabPunk — 29 Jan 2020, 21:37

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-27T07:06:18+02:00

TheKoopa wrote:
Neither of those units are bad, and not only that but the rhino is supplemented by the medusa in the t2 stage

Throw in medusas and watch people complain how rhinos are op.

Statistics: Posted by Little Miss Murder — 27 Jan 2020, 07:06

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-27T02:06:20+02:00

Neither of those units are bad, and not only that but the rhino is supplemented by the medusa in the t2 stage

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 27 Jan 2020, 02:06

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-26T23:07:39+02:00

Rikai wrote:
advena wrote:Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)

Rhino. the "worst" T2 tank. I beg to differ
I think your formula should encompass things like range, or even speed. Both make the Obsidian so... clumsy.

Obsidians and rhino's both suck, that's why Aeon have Harbie, and Cybran have Loyaliiiiiiiwaitaminutetheynerfedtheloyalistsintooblivion

Statistics: Posted by LabPunk — 26 Jan 2020, 23:07

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-26T12:28:19+02:00

Rikai wrote:
advena wrote:Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)

Rhino. the "worst" T2 tank. I beg to differ
I think your formula should encompass things like range, or even speed. Both make the Obsidian so... clumsy.

Obsidian is worst when it comes to shooting in something T1 (very usual situation). And all T2 main tanks (exept Rhino) will survive extra shoot on 50-200 HP

Rhino is worst when it all about T2 main tanks vs T2 main tanks (only noob like me with another such noob will be in such situation). Also there is stories about missing shoots

Statistics: Posted by advena — 26 Jan 2020, 12:28

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-26T11:26:06+02:00

advena wrote:
Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)

Rhino. the "worst" T2 tank. I beg to differ
I think your formula should encompass things like range, or even speed. Both make the Obsidian so... clumsy.

Statistics: Posted by Rikai — 26 Jan 2020, 11:26

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-24T22:09:59+02:00

As for math, the most significant change in this patch is Blase cost change. Now it's dps*hp/mass^2 stat is 1,62
For comparison:
Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)
Old Blase is 1,085
Old Wagner is 1,64
New Wagner is 1,36

Statistics: Posted by advena — 24 Jan 2020, 22:09

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-23T15:44:55+02:00

Farmsletje wrote:
There has been talk about making cloak more usefull but as of right now nothing concrete has appeared yet

For this: cloak field -> for defense with twilight should be nuts. especially with scatis that is units and not building.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 23 Jan 2020, 15:44

Re: 3709 feedback thread

2020-01-23T12:09:10+02:00

biass wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:So, in fact, you do need to test it out.

I am not affiliated with the balance team in any form and thus do not "need" to do anything, thanks.

I don't think the balance team need to look either, hundreds of proposals of varying quality appear every day and if they needed to be tested by the team simply on the onus that "they were made," they would have gotten nowhere.
The team is made to develop the FAF mod, not to be a test monkey to a 900's spur of the moment balance epiphany.

IceDreamer wrote:
The proposal is, I believe, still up on github, exactly where it belongs

Feel free to make a new thread for it and link it at any time and see what the public think about it.
If you actually have a solid proposal, letting it sit to rot on some code website does nothing.

Answering to icedreamer :
Afaik there have never been pull request about the ythota storm (only a branch) and none either for othuum.
As for the lack of testing of balance team, we do test pr and for ewample i can remind you that we made test of your beetle pr and even video of it to gather community pov.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 23 Jan 2020, 12:09