Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2020-02-03T08:45:35+02:00

Sacrifice should be 81% like a reclaiming unit (or maybe 0.75, so instant-use time is somewhat effective). Currently, it is just more effective to reclaim your own t1 engies to get mass back, which seems weird if the unit has a 'specialized ability' to actually give his mass&energy back. Essentially this is a way to add build points from factories with mass/energy discount, but 40% discount seems too much to be useful.
Factory can produce 3 engies of appropriate level (which will equals its buildpower) in ~1.1 minutes (40 seconds if engies assist ).

Statistics: Posted by techmind_ — 03 Feb 2020, 08:45

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-28T21:10:10+02:00

ZeRen wrote:
so engies healing ACU is OP, but the fakt that, Cyb ACU has no shileld or nano, while other ACUs do + some can even have T2 on top of it, is ok???

No it's not, it's not okay.
The only people who don't seem to think that the Cybran ACU is underpowered seem to be the balance mods. I don't see why you bring up Cybran ACU though.
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=18203

ZeRen wrote:
engies cost money and build time of facts, you know

Sacrifice isn't meant to be mass effective, but rather TIME effective.
Aeon ACU's are shield based, giving Aeon the ability to insta regen their health before heavy personal shield becomes available would be unbalanceable.

Statistics: Posted by LabPunk — 28 Oct 2019, 21:10

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-27T11:39:29+02:00

LabPunk wrote:
ACU's have too great a power cost ATM for sacrifice to make any sense at all to heal it.
It also has a great build time, so in your formula it would heal almost based on mass only.
I feel though, that healing an acu some HP per t1 engie would be be OP. HP on your acu, especially in ladder games are essentially a resource, and this would give Aeon an unfair way of attaining that resource in a way the faction isn't meant to.
Depending on the calculation it becomes either useless, or OP.

so engies healing ACU is OP, but the fakt that, Cyb ACU has no shileld or nano, while other ACUs do + some can even have T2 on top of it, is ok???

engies cost money and build time of facts, you know

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 27 Oct 2019, 11:39

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T22:43:28+02:00

ACU's have too great a power cost ATM for sacrifice to make any sense at all to heal it.
It also has a great build time, so in your formula it would heal almost based on mass only.
I feel though, that healing an acu some HP per t1 engie would be be OP. HP on your acu, especially in ladder games are essentially a resource, and this would give Aeon an unfair way of attaining that resource in a way the faction isn't meant to.
Depending on the calculation it becomes either useless, or OP.

Statistics: Posted by LabPunk — 26 Oct 2019, 22:43

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T17:52:39+02:00

Fixed in some certain mod but there's not retard to tell you anymore

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 26 Oct 2019, 17:52

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T16:30:51+02:00

Maybe there should be a conversion of unused mass / energy into the other resource, at a extremely poor exchange rate, so that at least it's not a total waste

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 26 Oct 2019, 16:30

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T14:38:13+02:00

So each SCU contributes 90% of the mass cost and 90% of the energy cost into the building? And then both mass and energy cost have to be satisfied in the end?

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Oct 2019, 14:38

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T12:36:27+02:00

Mass/energy ratio is different. There is not enough energy in RAS sacu to convert all available mass into Para.

Para cost 250k mass and 7500k energy. Ras sacu 6.5k/117k * 0.9 = 5.85/105 (sacrifice multiplier 0.9 for sacu, 0.6 for engies)

In terms of mass you can get: 5.85/250 * 100% = 2.34% of para
Energy: 105/7500 * 100% = 1.4%

So in the end 1 sacu gives 1.4% and all unused mass dissapears. Pretty weird and unintuitive system I should say, but at least it's 100% bug/abuse-free

Statistics: Posted by Strogo — 26 Oct 2019, 12:36

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T10:40:30+02:00

What is the current formula anyway? I thought it was purely mass-related, based on the sacrifices of RAS SCUs I did into land and air experimentals, but when I moved on to the game enders that idea went out the window. The GC needs 5 SCUs, the Ythota just over 4, but the Paragon needs 71, while it's only 9.1 times the cost of a GC.

Also, if Thomas's formula would be implemented, you can get a GC with 3.15 RAS SCUs.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Oct 2019, 10:40

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-26T01:14:01+02:00

The formula is [(Mass Cost / Engy Mass Cost) + (Energy Cost / Engy Energy Cost) + (Buildtime / Engy Buildtime)] / 3. I wasn't really thinking it would be a thing anyone ever used for ASF anyway. It would be most useful for getting ACU or factory upgrades or trading engies for lower tech units I think. I was thinking that you wouldn't want to encourage building only engies and sacrificing them so it should be a little less efficient, but idk. You could weigh them differently somehow or make it more efficient but this formula gets fairly close to reasonable efficiency for most things so that it might actually be used.

Statistics: Posted by ThomasHiatt — 26 Oct 2019, 01:14

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-25T23:46:30+02:00

what's the formula your are using ? i think you should add some weight to the mass; having 3k mass for an asf is fucked (even if you save tons of energy). Maybe you should show the mass/energy saved in term of % of the original unit price. And then you take that percentage into account in some way, to add more weight to the mass (so you save more mass than energy, or at least for the units that have big differential in term of their mass/e cost)

Also i think you can make it so you aren't losing any mass/e at all when doing it, maybe even saving 10% or so. So theoretically you could build only engie and suicide them constantly and saving mass/e. But i don't think it can be abused.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 25 Oct 2019, 23:46

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-25T23:33:49+02:00

Sacrifice doesn't really do anything useful at all ever. My proposal for making it somewhat useful would be to change it from being a mass/energy based system to more fair system that takes energy, mass, and buildtime into account. After checking the numbers on a few different solution the most fair way to value engies seems to be calculate how many engies it would take to account for the buildtime cost, mass cost, and energy cost of the destination structure and take the average of that number as the number of engy sacrifices required to complete it. Here is a spreadsheet showing how this would play out for some common and interesting units. This would make it so sacrifice allowed you to trade your engineers for a fair market value and get something else for them, which would make aeon much more interesting to play and allow sacrifice to actually be a fun and interesting mechanic.
https://imgur.com/QETGKHF

Statistics: Posted by ThomasHiatt — 25 Oct 2019, 23:33

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-25T21:14:08+02:00

keyser wrote:
Gone wrote:
keyser wrote:because acu is worth 2k mass, don't think people would like to suicide to get 2k more mass into an exp.

I mean ACU doesn't get any health if you sacrifice units to acu.

ah i thought you wanted to sacrifice the ACU.
So you want to sacrifice units into the ACU/sACU to make them get upgrade faster ? Never thought of that.

YES upgrading or getting the health boost

Statistics: Posted by Chosen — 25 Oct 2019, 21:14

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-25T19:40:31+02:00

Gone wrote:
keyser wrote:because acu is worth 2k mass, don't think people would like to suicide to get 2k more mass into an exp.

I mean ACU doesn't get any health if you sacrifice units to acu.

ah i thought you wanted to sacrifice the ACU.
So you want to sacrifice units into the ACU/sACU to make them get upgrade faster ? Never thought of that.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 25 Oct 2019, 19:40

Re: Why the Aeon Sacrifice feature does not work for ACU

2019-10-25T19:35:45+02:00

keyser wrote:
because acu is worth 2k mass, don't think people would like to suicide to get 2k more mass into an exp.

I mean ACU doesn't get any health if you sacrifice units to acu.

Statistics: Posted by Chosen — 25 Oct 2019, 19:35