Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-11T00:48:48+02:00

UnorthodoxBox wrote:
You also have to ctrl k the novax at the right time because if its too early, the missile will pass right through it, and too late, the missile will fly right under it. Also the satellite falls much more randomly now it seems.

You don't have to ctrlk it at all... I'm not saying to kill the whole enemy base by using ctrlk so nuke explode in lower stratosphere killing yolo but detonating nukes at highest point where all you have to literally do is just move the satelite, hold fire and wait for nuke...

Then we fixed the lazer to not kill the nukes.

You call it a fix, for me it's just lost flavour. Considering it was part of the game that every projectile could have been hit. But it doesn't matter.

i'm still waiting on your replay of the abuse, my dear. (and especially on the number of novax needed to perform this perma lock of the yolo ; because clearly 2 seems way to low to achieve it)

Okay I didn't count for the travel time on 20km map and deploy time. 4 is more than enough. Which still gives us way better Economy ratio compared to upkeep of 24 SMD.

Also I like how you are trying to make it into the scenario that is made to be the best one for all the possibilities when it requires more babysitting and teamplay but frees up some of your mass and grants ability to defend all your navy from Yolo.

And all cuz I said that you can stop Yolo and it's not the end of the game as someone else sugested here

Yolona Oss is truly a game ender tho. You'll blow through any amount of SMD with a yolona oss.

While all it takes is 8/9 SMD per base or 4 novaxes from the middle of Setons.

ok i reformulate, provide me a real game and not a sandbox where the condition i just said are covered

Sorry didn't happen, people are not gonna think of it when they can just spam mindlessly SMD and call it a day. The better option is here, but harder to pull off. And the replay you had clearly shows me blocking 10 nukes without trouble after making adjustments for the inertia of satelite(you need to issue one more move order on middle of the platform otherwise the satelite won't allign due to inertia)

Then calculate the cost in price.
Some tips, i guess you will already need at least 5 novax (180k mass) so that's already the price of the yolo in terms of mass. Then you add 10k per sat you lose, knowing that t

4 novaxes on midlane are enough to block yolona. So that is 104k mass in stations as you can factor in the cost of already built satelites as missiles.
That is still less than 24 smd's needed for defending 4 bases which is 180k mass without any missile ready for launch. You don't build novax in situation where want to protect just 1/2 bases as it's not where it should come, but in cases where you want to protect whole map from the threat. After all losing all those navy will hurt just as much as getting base deleted.
The upkeep for the 24 smds is gonna be a ton more than those novax stations. And it still won't cover everything you want.

And TBH why the hell are we discussing it when I clearly stated it that it can be a meme under impression that you can still beam the shit out of nukes.And only after getting to know that it got removed I recalculated for meme potential of just having satelites hover over the yolo which on paper is still the best option when you want to defend whole map not just one or 2 bases.

So let's just call it quits before you nerf it even more, after all it's not like you could have implemented other counterplay to novax than "make shields bruh".
Even more as you are stuck up in your opinions as the proper ones.

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 11 Sep 2019, 00:48

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-11T00:35:38+02:00

UnorthodoxBox wrote:
Also the satellite falls much more randomly now it seems.

Yes, that was a change in patch 3704. Which is, ironically, the original subject of this thread.

http://content.faforever.com/patchnotes/3704.html#Air

Statistics: Posted by armacham01 — 11 Sep 2019, 00:35

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T23:53:22+02:00

You also have to ctrl k the novax at the right time because if its too early, the missile will pass right through it, and too late, the missile will fly right under it. Also the satellite falls much more randomly now it seems.

Statistics: Posted by UnorthodoxBox — 10 Sep 2019, 23:53

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T23:20:47+02:00

Endranii wrote:
Your turn keyser.

i'm still waiting on your replay of the abuse, my dear. (and especially on the number of novax needed to perform this perma lock of the yolo ; because clearly 2 seems way to low to achieve it)

Although honestly I should just stop as clearly you have your own vision of how units are SUPPOSED to be used anyway.

well first you need to know that we made the novax killable and rebuildable by paying 10k mass (to prevent blocking yolo for free).
Then we fixed the lazer to not kill the nukes.
so if you can prove me you can abuse it by showing it being abuse in a game, then i will rethink of it. I haven't seen so far it being abused. in the case you prove it to me, i will then increase the mass cost of the sat. I'm definitely not removing the collision with the sat, because people like to keep collision in the game and also because i find it a good idea to give this option to UEF to counter nuke in an an-usual way.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 10 Sep 2019, 23:20

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T22:05:20+02:00

At worst you need 3 centres to stop yolo, normally 2 should be enough if you get them on time.
Now you need 24 SMD anyway to cover the 3 main bases, after all you don't want to lose any part of the map that you have as it will mean losing not only beach/rock but also middle.
That is already 180k mass compared to 78K(not counting the mass in satelite as novax comes with one) mass in novax centres. Now each missile is obviously 3.6k mass, so 7.2k to defend from single nuke, meaning 2.8k less than satelite cost per nuke. BUT, we need to multiply that by 3 as we have 3 core bases to protect on MID lane(covers AIr too) BEACH and Rock, leaving us with 21.6k mass per nuke. Which is staggering 11.6k mass more than if we were to use novax. Don't even start on energy upkeep costs and the fact that assisting novax is way faster than multiple SMD' across whole map.

And guess what there is still no navy SMD and there never will be so novax actually protects our naval force too, it protects everything from all kinds of nuclear threats.

Your turn keyser.

Edit:Although honestly I should just stop as clearly you have your own vision of how units are SUPPOSED to be used anyway. Same as was with all the time it took to even slightly buff the T1 AA options for aeon navy, it just not worth the time spent. Better get that stupid Diamond in lol, at least there will be sense of achievement.

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 10 Sep 2019, 22:05

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T21:26:05+02:00

Endranii wrote:
Ok seems like some BIG BRAIN made the missle unkillable for the beam weaponry? So you can no longer just laser it. But the point still stands, you overall spend less mass on novax to protect THE WHOLE MAP including navies and shit with just 2 novax centres. Just park satelite over the Yolona and watch the nukes explode each time they launch.

Also not my fault people are sleeping on some things considering them to be just to cancerous to play or just outright remove them as we have seen in many instances.

Edit:#10206190 You can block everything no matter where the nuke goes anyway. And considering that Yolona is already a team effort then nothing stops you from making novax as team effort too. At least it saves you from making literally 24 SMD to cover MID BEACH and ROCK. Also Novax is way harder to snipe than 24 SMDs.

PPS:Novax is also way easier to assist as the Satelite takes less BP. Also it comes with one satelite already done, so you are ready to intercept first nuke the moment Novax Centre is out unlike with SMD which then have to be make the missle.

"well i'm still waiting on a replay where 1 team doesn't build tons of smd and just spam novax to constantly block the opponent yolo"

ok i reformulate, provide me a real game and not a sandbox where the condition i just said are covered.

Also if you wanna make a sandbox, do it properly next time. build 1 yolo for 1 team and few novax in a safe spot for the other team. Then start doing the novax dance. Then calculate the cost in price.
Some tips, i guess you will already need at least 5 novax (180k mass) so that's already the price of the yolo in terms of mass. Then you add 10k per sat you lose, knowing that the yolo fire every minute without assist.

and by novax dance i mean positioning them over the yolo, then rebuilding them one after the other, and sending them through the whole map 1 after 1 during 10-20 minutes.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 10 Sep 2019, 21:26

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T20:51:37+02:00

Ok seems like some BIG BRAIN made the missle unkillable for the beam weaponry? So you can no longer just laser it. But the point still stands, you overall spend less mass on novax to protect THE WHOLE MAP including navies and shit with just 2 novax centres. Just park satelite over the Yolona and watch the nukes explode each time they launch.

Also not my fault people are sleeping on some things considering them to be just to cancerous to play or just outright remove them as we have seen in many instances.

Edit:#10206190 You can block everything no matter where the nuke goes anyway. And considering that Yolona is already a team effort then nothing stops you from making novax as team effort too. At least it saves you from making literally 24 SMD to cover MID BEACH and ROCK. Also Novax is way harder to snipe than 24 SMDs.

PPS:Novax is also way easier to assist as the Satelite takes less BP. Also it comes with one satelite already done, so you are ready to intercept first nuke the moment Novax Centre is out unlike with SMD which then have to be make the missle.

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 10 Sep 2019, 20:51

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T18:17:19+02:00

Endranii wrote:
Azraeel wrote:Yolo is uncounterable

Actually no, it takes 8/9 smd to fully counter Yolona so it's not like it's unstopable.It costs a lot of mass and E to fend it off but it's doable just like against mavor/scathis.
Or you can just meme with space lazer and pay 1/7 of the mass cost to render it unusable(unless it got changed and I missed it).

well i'm still waiting on a replay where 1 team doesn't build tons of smd and just spam novax to constantly block the opponent yolo

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 10 Sep 2019, 18:17

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-10T17:43:57+02:00

Azraeel wrote:
Yolo is uncounterable

Actually no, it takes 8/9 smd to fully counter Yolona so it's not like it's unstopable.It costs a lot of mass and E to fend it off but it's doable just like against mavor/scathis.
Or you can just meme with space lazer and pay 1/7 of the mass cost to render it unusable(unless it got changed and I missed it).

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 10 Sep 2019, 17:43

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-07T23:13:44+02:00

Steel_Panther wrote:
keyser wrote:I'm not an expert in late game requiring game ender. But i can tell you that e cost isn't that important. At this point in the game you have set up power grid to handle the asf spam (no need to build pgen to build your game ender), and as said before you will be most likely stalling on mass rather than energy.

I agree, except for the Yolona. We could quibble about how much is a substantial enough power grid, but it is significantly more energy intensive than other game enders. You'll need 20k+ excess power, not counting all your other energy usage like shields and mexes, to build it in under 8 minutes, assuming you are putting 400 mass per second into it. If you want to build it faster, say with a good amount of stored mass, it will take more power. It costs a total of 10 million energy, so to build in 5 minutes, that means 2 million energy per minute, or 33,333 per second. Yes, a substantial air grid can handle this, but air would very likely have to be paused if you want to try to build it relatively quickly. That might be worth it, but in some situations (e.g. was air lost?) you might want to keep building a few more asfs to help protect the game ender vs strat snipes, so that makes it a bit of an issue compared to the other game enders.

To compare:
Yolo 10M energy, (187.7k mass) 53 e/mass
Mavor 6M (224.8k mass) 26.7 e/mass
Scathis 4.0M (220k mass) 18.2 e/mass
Paragon 7.5M (250.2k mass) 30 e/mass
Salvation 5.4M (202.5k mass) 26.7 e/mass

Especially since the mavor, scathis and paragon are significantly more mass expensive, that means the yolo is relatively even more energy intensive. It's about 3x more energy intensive than the new scathis and about 2x the mavor.

10m E, Thats Insane. If its more expensive, why is it more expensive then the Paragon. Shit i might as well build a paragon over a Yolona Oss . Yolona Oss is truly a game ender tho. You'll blow through any amount of SMD with a yolona oss. The Reload rate of a Yolona Oss is insane anyway. I understand the cost maybe more mass then E?

Statistics: Posted by Azraeel — 07 Sep 2019, 23:13

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-07T21:35:34+02:00

keyser wrote:
I'm not an expert in late game requiring game ender. But i can tell you that e cost isn't that important. At this point in the game you have set up power grid to handle the asf spam (no need to build pgen to build your game ender), and as said before you will be most likely stalling on mass rather than energy.

I agree, except for the Yolona. We could quibble about how much is a substantial enough power grid, but it is significantly more energy intensive than other game enders. You'll need 20k+ excess power, not counting all your other energy usage like shields and mexes, to build it in under 8 minutes, assuming you are putting 400 mass per second into it. If you want to build it faster, say with a good amount of stored mass, it will take more power. It costs a total of 10 million energy, so to build in 5 minutes, that means 2 million energy per minute, or 33,333 per second. Yes, a substantial air grid can handle this, but air would very likely have to be paused if you want to try to build it relatively quickly. That might be worth it, but in some situations (e.g. was air lost?) you might want to keep building a few more asfs to help protect the game ender vs strat snipes, so that makes it a bit of an issue compared to the other game enders.

To compare:
Yolo 10M energy, (187.7k mass) 53 e/mass
Mavor 6M (224.8k mass) 26.7 e/mass
Scathis 4.0M (220k mass) 18.2 e/mass
Paragon 7.5M (250.2k mass) 30 e/mass
Salvation 5.4M (202.5k mass) 26.7 e/mass

Especially since the mavor, scathis and paragon are significantly more mass expensive, that means the yolo is relatively even more energy intensive. It's about 3x more energy intensive than the new scathis and about 2x the mavor.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 07 Sep 2019, 21:35

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-07T20:48:28+02:00

Thomy100 wrote:
FtXCommando wrote: You know one of the dudes that got to the finals in the end of the year tournament last year basically purely plays phim in 1v1, right? And that’s where phim is supposed to BE weaker and happened on a patch where they WERE weaker. How does that fit into the facts and logic? (Or Nano ACU, or double gun, or gunship, or making chicken able to stomp large t3 armies due to the fact it can now properly kite while using most of its dps, ....)

Do you know where I can watch these replays? is it in the vault or somewhere? Would really love to watch tem

About the t3 sub: Yes, I agree, it's shouldn't become a "Monster" again as it used to be... I will think about it and maybe test out some stuff in sandbox mode to suggest a moderate buff.

Nah, really should start keeping track of tournament games for the sake of rewatching them though.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 07 Sep 2019, 20:48

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-07T20:37:44+02:00

JaggedAppliance wrote:
I want to clarify that the only person who is actually in the balance team that has commented in the last few pages is keyser, no one else. Anyone else speaking for the balance team has no basis to do so.

Boom all arguements destoryed... All theories destoryed.... BOOM JAGGED ENDS IT ALL

Statistics: Posted by Azraeel — 07 Sep 2019, 20:37

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-07T19:24:45+02:00

I want to clarify that the only person who is actually in the balance team that has commented in the last few pages is keyser, no one else. Anyone else speaking for the balance team has no basis to do so.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 07 Sep 2019, 19:24

Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

2019-09-07T18:50:14+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
You know one of the dudes that got to the finals in the end of the year tournament last year basically purely plays phim in 1v1, right? And that’s where phim is supposed to BE weaker and happened on a patch where they WERE weaker. How does that fit into the facts and logic? (Or Nano ACU, or double gun, or gunship, or making chicken able to stomp large t3 armies due to the fact it can now properly kite while using most of its dps, ....)

Do you know where I can watch these replays? is it in the vault or somewhere? Would really love to watch tem

About the t3 sub: Yes, I agree, it's shouldn't become a "Monster" again as it used to be... I will think about it and maybe test out some stuff in sandbox mode to suggest a moderate buff.

Statistics: Posted by Thomy100 — 07 Sep 2019, 18:50