Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2019-02-25T13:42:52+02:00

Dont you peeps think that bifurcating the balance ruins your feel for things?
Developing two different balance intuitions cannot be anything but confusing.

Statistics: Posted by 5cript — 25 Feb 2019, 13:42

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2019-01-06T00:30:16+02:00

Apofenas, pay attention to the language: you don't see mmls AS OFTEN as in team games. I would really kind of question how your games go since in 1v1 you can just send units around a fire base, which kind of makes the units much less purposeful.

I'm sorry, but team games and 1v1 play very, very differently. At the base, the same thing happens where players eco and upgrade to higher tiers; however, for differences lie where nukes, t3 air, and exps are much less seen than a typical team game where 98%+ involve t3 air and nukes.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 06 Jan 2019, 00:30

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2019-01-04T05:11:15+02:00

Steel_Panther wrote:
So rambo acus are still very powerful in most team games since you usually have only one or two small lanes to cover and can overcharge all t2 units into oblivion for very cheap.

B-b-but at least it isn't that terrible terrible gap map, because that's only one lane haha r-r-right g-guys..?

Statistics: Posted by biass — 04 Jan 2019, 05:11

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2019-01-04T02:33:40+02:00

Morax wrote:
Apofenas, I would not really propose anything too drastically different from what is current. I feel the idea can be explored where certain things like the previous balance is reverted, with the exception that t3 land/ air and exps have a large increase in build time.

Also, when I play 1v1 it's nothing like a team game, so the mindset is different already. I mean, how often do you see mmls in 1v1 anyways? People don't tend to make giant fire bases, but rather opt for shields and defense around a commander to protect against snipes.

In the end, I think nerfing t3 land was a poor move, while the actual problem was easy access to that tier level. Of course, t3 air and exp access needs to be a higher cost - whether that be with time or resources - to help offset the tier 3 land delay.

I don't think any unit in particular is crazy OP in current spare maybe pillars being too cheap.

I'm open to others thoughts on this and appreciate your input, Apofenas.

I agree with a lot of this. I don't think the t3 nerf was too bad, but the better option was probably still increasing hq cost by quite a bit more. This is what I argued for initially. I do like the overcharge nerf, but for team games it is still op. Having to get one or two extra storages is barely an issue, and the higher energy cost for overcharging t2 and t3 units is not that big of a deal at that stage in the game either. So rambo acus are still very powerful in most team games since you usually have only one or two small lanes to cover and can overcharge all t2 units into oblivion for very cheap. The t3 nerf also substantially increases rambo acu relevancy in team games since t3 units are less of a threat. Plus, the fact that they are not overkilled and leave a lot more reclaim further benefits using the acu anytime you repel a push or make any ground (but this could be a detriment if you lose ground). So the biggest reason that people STILL skip most t2 units (op rambo acu), was not actually fixed; At least for team games. The acu is only slightly nerfed vs t2, and basically not at all, or perhaps even relatively stronger now vs t3. In 1v1 games you just send higher tier units away from the acu and so it's a different story.

I'm not sure if pillars are too strong/cheap or if parashields are. Parashields are strong because they counter overcharging rambo acus well.

I think it would be best to try to have a single balance that works well for both teamgames and 1v1, but the problem might be that most popular team game maps are 10v10, which just isn't big enough to require players to cover enough ground that units can easily avoid a rambo acu, so maybe that will always be the case. 20x20 maps apparently are just too long and laggy for most people to enjoy. So...I think you have to nerf the rambo acu, but it might not be very compatible with 1v1 style play, because it is not op there.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 04 Jan 2019, 02:33

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-30T06:27:34+02:00

Morax wrote:
Also, when I play 1v1 it's nothing like a team game, so the mindset is different already. I mean, how often do you see mmls in 1v1 anyways? People don't tend to make giant fire bases, but rather opt for shields and defense around a commander to protect against snipes.

Yes I do see MMLs in 1v1 games. Literally my last 1v1 game against Space4Man. I had no t2 pds during whole game, he built MMLs against faction which has access mobile TMD unit. What else do you need from MML? If you don't use it, it doesn't mean it is useless.

Dro wrote:
( and before you start talking about map design these are heavily popular maps and its abit easier to tweak a couple of game values then it is to create a whole new subset of maps that basically just become 1v1 maps within a team something which i do not consider a team game-glares at turin)

Astrocrater and gap waaaay more popular maps. Lets tweak "a couple of game values" around them first.

Dro wrote:
They are such strong choices within teamgames on such maps as hilly, wonder, canis

You put 10 people on 10x10 map... WHAT COULD EVER GO WRONG? You put t2 arty in wonder mid base and you can cover whole 5km wide gap. You put one in center of map so you can fire at any front base, why would not that be your unit of choice? Same goes for snipers and t3 mobile arty.

Now here's the question: would I use those units in 1v1 on same team game maps? Probably yes if game goes long enough. I had some games where snipers and arty were used to great effect on common 1v1 maps. If we try to adress issues you mentioned and hardbuff t3 land units so they aren't "useless" in 8v8 Wonder closed... great job now they are super OP in 3v3 Wonder open or in custom 1v1.

It is just a map has conditions that favours such game play. Same way as 20x20 maps force do-or-die transport rush.

Global games differ so much. Trying to adjust balance to map specifics will just result in balance mod for every popular map to the point nobody knows how to play anything else exept what they playes during last couple years.

To me this discussion is like arguing about navy being too usefull on water map. :/

I mean I don't nessesarily disagree with your points about team game unit balance. There are some things that should be changed. But as i told, this should be brought up to balance team in a first place. Or make your own mod. Every discussion on balance forums ends with this phrase anyway.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 30 Dec 2018, 06:27

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-29T06:33:25+02:00

Making a balance mod is incredibly easy. I feel like you should be doing that instead of writing the same essay again, here.

Just take the faf mod, change the uid and the name, and start messing with stats. everything you don't know is already in the links channel in the maps and mods server for you to get.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 29 Dec 2018, 06:33

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T22:42:04+02:00

Currently all it takes for a mod to be rated is to prove that the current rating system would accurately represent people’s chances of winning while playing with that mod.

Maybe that changes with hussar making new mod guidelines, I don’t know.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 28 Dec 2018, 22:42

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T22:38:57+02:00

Maybe the answer is to not play 8v8 on a 1v1 map?
But sure, we need a balance patch to fix that instead. This is like people complaining arty is OP on gap.

What do you think is gonna happen when the map is clogged up to oblivion due to having 4 players defending 1 choke instead of .5 in a 1v1? PDs are supposed to be cost efficient...because they can't move.

Statistics: Posted by Quant — 28 Dec 2018, 22:38

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T22:17:49+02:00

Farmsletje wrote:
just so you know, a t2 shield & arty nerf are planned

Details?

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 28 Dec 2018, 22:17

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T22:13:59+02:00

What will it take to get this mod rated?

2 years :4head:

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 28 Dec 2018, 22:13

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T22:04:16+02:00

What will it take to get this mod rated?

Also, no offense, but a lot of 1v1 players and team game players are already divided... I don't see the point in denying that, commando. Most "team game" folks want NOTHING to do with 1v1.

Edit: okay, so, you didn't deny it, but there isn't much left to lose. Why try and save a animal that got hit by a car and will never function properly again, only to suffer?

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 28 Dec 2018, 22:04

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T20:12:41+02:00

Agree with the points about this really doing nothing other than causing a greater divide between gameplay types. If FAF can’t properly balance team games then someone can make TeamGameEdit and it shouldn’t have much of an issue getting itself rated. There is no point in doubling balance workload by making such a split “official.”

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 28 Dec 2018, 20:12

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T19:50:57+02:00

just so you know, a t2 shield & arty nerf are planned

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 28 Dec 2018, 19:50

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T19:25:13+02:00

Apofenas, i can name a few imbalances in team games currently. The fact of the matter is all micro able units, e.g snipers, mobile arty, static arty and to an extent percies are all heavily imba in the current state of play.

They are such strong choices within teamgames on such maps as hilly, wonder, canis because defences e.g shields mobile arty,snipers and, to a lesser extent, pd are so quickly built and good at repelling slow moving attacks and they can exist in key areas where they wont be wasted ( and before you start talking about map design these are heavily popular maps and its abit easier to tweak a couple of game values then it is to create a whole new subset of maps that basically just become 1v1 maps within a team something which i do not consider a team game-glares at turin).

All you need is abit of build power and some t2 pds mixed with some of the previously mentioned and you can efficiently trade with alot for FRACTIONS of the cost in defense or in attack and then go on the counter attack with little risk of dumping massive amounts of reclaim, so when you pit your 2 bricks vs 3 trebs the bricks find it almost impossible to push without taking alot of damage on entry and then run into an acu or even just t2 pd your units will lose and you will donate them massive amounts of reclaim and if halfway you decide you cant attack anymore becuase you see something moving over from another team mate to counter your attack your units are now taking massive damage in retreating making this an impossible strategy, not only that but to t3 mobile arty and trebs in particular are extremely effective vs all other tech levels as well, its without question when you think 'i need to deal with this low tech army' you dont go for the intuitive counter which should be a loyalist you go for a mobile arty which is meant to counter static defences this in my eyes is flawed design because it makes the game incredibly dull and just a 'how much eco and build power can i get whilst brainlessly spamming these units whilst i go for a nuke or an experimental and then 'oh someones attacking me now better spam out abit of pd or a brick or two whilst my trebs get insane value'.

And when massed ( as the game goes on ) the units that you have built don't expire they only get stronger. Snipers don't really go off and neither does t2 static arty (to an extent) and t3 mobile arty; they are useful throughout which means building them to counter low tech level units is ridiculous.

The problem with the current balance in team games is t3 units which are meant to punch through the enemy are so slow and so expensive for their cost that they are just next to useless vs any ranged unit , bricks being a good example, because cybran don't have access to mobile shields and so are heavily reliant on build power following their pushes to build static shields to counter this which is ridiculous, not only that but they are equally susceptible to rambo acus which they have no easy ranged counter for e.g aeon sniper double gun push and to go even further cybran cant easily flak any unit that wants to push in either because arty can just destroy it
this makes t3 mobile arty incredible brainless to spam but annoying apm intensive to counter snipers dont suffer this problem as they are shorter range and they must be microd to be of any effect.

Then the go to tactic for cybrans and for sera in these sorts of games is to just push forwards with heavy amounts of build power, mostly a t3 acu, and trebuchets because they are both cheaper than bricks and vastly more pressurising and effective towards enemy bases and units alike, they provoke a shield response and any units that are attacking the position must have vast numbers to overcome the shields and t2 pd which the the engies are CAPABLE of building not only that but the build power makes air attacks frustratingly difficult for anyone other than the dedicated air spot (and i wont talk about t3 air balance in the game currently but its beyond fucked maybe reducing adjacency on t3 air factories from 75% reduction when gridded to like 40% would be a welcome change and this wont affect your precious 1v1's either), the response from the player building mobile arty does even need to be built just exist in a possibility of build power near the units and by the time the slow moving expensive assault arrives its heavily damaged and t2 pd built whilst they are walking mixed with a single brick or similar and before you say this isnt equal mass its pretty equal to the 2 other bricks they just made and are walking at you at the pace of a snail.

I propose a cost increases for t3 mobile arty to make it equal to the brick or percy and also some tweak to arty splash so it is reduced whilst also buffing its accuracy(as long as its not buffing the accuracy on moving units) and its damage, since they are much more abused in team games than snipers currently, although snipers are strong,where there increased range makes them very micro able even with the grace period where they are setting up because its hard to have a ready set counter to them instantly built because t2 static arty is so expensive and its build time is long if you dont have mass in the bank you will have to do some economy rearranging which takes time in itself to counter it in any time at all.

I feel like after this change is done some more input could be used on the state of snipers since these will be affected by stronger fast moving assault bots.

Another obvious solution to reducing these units effectiveness is to buff the fast moving t3 units for team games, give them proper range and in the harbs case more shield health, its frustrating to see loyas owned by every single t2 unit in the game after gutting it completely they even removed acu stun loyas in the current balance are nothing more than a glorified emp. A way to combat the increased viability of the already strong sniper and to overall buff the general microability of shorter ranged t3 units (the more risk rewarding method rather than the current state of micro for uef and cybran which is to just watch over your mobile arty) buffing the range of the assault bots for uef and cybran by giving them increased range (mainly the loyalist because its been gutted too hard but the titan too should be buffed somewhat depending on the severity of the loyalist buff) and to also give them slight buffs to damage. This would make t3 heavy bots a more clear counter to these and more of a defense force for the more expensive mobile arty which should now be now seen as more of a counter to a firebase rather than a unit to be built and just sat on throughout the game due to its value never depreciating vs units this will give t3 balance in team games more of a clear role whilst also giving t3 mobile bots a good role in cleaning out spam and genuinely being a pressure microable unit rather than an easily countered garbage can. This makes pushes in team games a better rock paper scissors design wherein t3 mobile arty WILL effectively take down a fire base if not properly microd against since the reduced splash makes it easier to shield vs but the higher damage and fire rate means they must constantly proactively respond with an attacking force of their own which wont be destroyed before getting to the enemy by the massive splash of trebs and actually stands a chance. This i believe simplifies team games much more effectively at the t3 stage whilst opens up more skill into micro and balances t3 and firebases more effectively between themselves. And while I'm at it the turn rate for the brick should be improved so that it can shoot more effectively i cannot describe the annoyance i feel as it creaks its gun around to start shooting some t1, the brick does decent damage but when compared to a percy its minimal and most of the downside of the percie is its alpha so when its alpha is spent turning its quite strong.

I also didnt mention experimentals but I think with these changes t3 armies would interact alot better with static defences giving t3 units more micro early game and allowing advantages to be pressed to the point where experimental would come out in a timely fashion after gaining an advantage with t3 but if balances were separated i think experimental build time should be reverted or somewhat lessened and in response made more expensive.

TLRD;
Rework t3 mobile arty to better counter firebases and be less effective vs units
Buff t3 bots to more deal with t1 and t2
Keep an eye on snipers
Mobile shields could looked at
Brick turn rate should be buffed

Statistics: Posted by Dro — 28 Dec 2018, 19:25

Re: Balance Mod For 1v1 and global

2018-12-28T17:34:00+02:00

Apofenas, I would not really propose anything too drastically different from what is current. I feel the idea can be explored where certain things like the previous balance is reverted, with the exception that t3 land/ air and exps have a large increase in build time.

Also, when I play 1v1 it's nothing like a team game, so the mindset is different already. I mean, how often do you see mmls in 1v1 anyways? People don't tend to make giant fire bases, but rather opt for shields and defense around a commander to protect against snipes.

In the end, I think nerfing t3 land was a poor move, while the actual problem was easy access to that tier level. Of course, t3 air and exp access needs to be a higher cost - whether that be with time or resources - to help offset the tier 3 land delay.

I don't think any unit in particular is crazy OP in current spare maybe pillars being too cheap.

I'm open to others thoughts on this and appreciate your input, Apofenas.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 28 Dec 2018, 17:34