Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-24T04:14:10+02:00

This thread should have been left for the big boys instead of people trying to shill other forum threads at the end of their posts but i have faith the team read the suggestion a while ago anyway.

I can support a worse but easier to spam frigate. +1

Statistics: Posted by biass — 24 Nov 2018, 04:14

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-24T01:01:07+02:00

Yes to the cost decrease or the torp def fix but I don't really see a problem. Each faction has its strong suit. It just happens that with Aeon, you need more micro & better unit cooperation to come out on top (and you will come out on top by a large margin)

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 24 Nov 2018, 01:01

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-22T21:55:24+02:00

Much easier to get into a rhythm on the salem shots, you just slightly turn your destro as it moves towards the salem. Eventually salem gotta fall back, which sounds great but then you realize cybran frigs exist.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 22 Nov 2018, 21:55

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-22T17:42:05+02:00

Easier to dodge Salem shots than Exodus shots? Really? I'd like to see that then because I've never been able to dodge Salem better than Exodus.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 22 Nov 2018, 17:42

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-22T15:48:03+02:00

It’s arguably easier to dodge salem shots than exodus shots. Particularly if you got a shity internal clock.

T3 subhunters can kite t2 ones.

I’d say phim destro is my favorite destro tbh, great for attacking just about anything. Exodus can be out-micro’d, salem can be out-micro’d (shots + can’t kite), uef is >uef.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 22 Nov 2018, 15:48

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-22T14:04:15+02:00

LabPunk wrote:
The Aeon frig does okay against opposing frigs.
It loses to Cybran, ties against UEF and wins against Sera frigs.
Yes, it lacks AA, but let's not pretend that frigate AA is good. Frigs lose mass for mass even to Jesters.
Besides, as you said, frigs are supposed to be cannon fodder in later stages, not for air support.

At the start of the game, the frigate's AA does count and it is amazing. Of course it loses against Jesters in mass-to-mass terms. That makes sense. Let's compare the Jester with the Cybran frigate.

4 Frigates vs 5 Jesters:
1k mass vs 1k mass.
10k Energy vs 25k Energy.
Built in 250 seconds by one factory vs built in 250 seconds by one factory.
Drain of 2 Pgens vs drain of 5 Pgens.
Shore bombardment, naval control, AA vs Raiding anywhere, no AA.
Testing: All frigates dead at the cost of 3 Jesters.

Conclusion: for 135 extra mass, you can have the five air units that kill four frigates, whose AA ability is the secondary weapon. So Frigate AA isn't horrible, this is a pretty good balance.

Aeon have no AA on their frigate, instead they get to spend another 120 mass for an AA specific unit, on top of the extra 40 that an Aeon frigate costs compared to the Cybran frigate. You mentioned it losing against the Cybran frigate 1-1, how do you think 2 Aeon frigates will stand up against three Cybran frigates, because you also had to build shards?

The point here is that Aeon have a navy that lack any specific weakness. Seraphim has a sub weakness, UEF destros are strong but are the only to lose against submerged Sera destros, by a large margin, and UEF lacks t3 AA, and Cybran has no cost effective TML bombardment options, or naval shielding. All other factions lack even a remotely decent naval Exp.
It isn't just the cruiser that provides powerful AA either, Shards are actually pretty great, and their 800 Health just trolls torpedo bombers which deal 750 damage.

Aeon have no specific strength, maybe apart from the Torrent's range, which is pretty impressive. But it's completely irrelevant to naval battle so it doesn't count. Cybran has stealth, with 80-range destroyers that have such high RoF that 70+% of the shots hit, rather than the majority of the destro shots miss (and it's very easy to learn to dodge Aeon destro shots). UEF has shield boats and battlecruisers. Seraphim... Well I don't consider them to have any strength either. Their T3 subhunter is a lot of fun but it loses in equal mass to the T2 counterparts. As it does with the vast vast majority of Tier comparisons you can make. As for the Tempest. It's not so great. The shot is slow, the unit is slow and bulky and it loses against normal Battleships. Best part of it is that you can give it diarrhea by ordering it to build T1 engineers

Heaven's naval comparison chart: not sure how it holds up with the players higher rated than him, but it should definitely help you out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTenr5P9Wc

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 22 Nov 2018, 14:04

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-21T22:56:22+02:00

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
LabPunk wrote:and UEF lacks t3 AA,

???

I think he means t3 aircraft carrier. Not that it matters since UEF cruiser is good enough

Statistics: Posted by Evan_ — 21 Nov 2018, 22:56

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-21T20:30:48+02:00

LabPunk wrote:
It's not a crushing weakness. This is the pointless hyperbole that turns people off.
Buffing the Aeon frig makes it top tier, which clearly it shouldn't be.

Buffing something does not instantly make it top tier. And yes, it is a crushing weakness because it is by far the most used naval unit and much worse than the other frigs.

LabPunk wrote:
This is simply not true. UEF destro is objectively the strongest.

Yeah especially against t2 subs or when you are playing against a good player who dodges every shot :kappa: It does not even have 80 range like the other destroyers which have easily dodged weapons.

LabPunk wrote:
Aeon destros don't get dodged 90% of the time, even in 1 on 1 micro-ed engagements, let alone in actual engagements.
I also don't understand the pointless hyperbole here.

Well you are playing with people who don’t know how to play against aeon then. Also, if it’s clearly a hyperbole why reply to it in a way that makes it seem like it wasn’t?

LabPunk wrote:
The Aeon frig does okay against opposing frigs.
It loses to Cybran, ties against UEF and wins against Sera frigs.

While costing much more, having a longer build time, no aa and no 360-degree turret angle on both of its weapons like the sera frig (sera only has one turret).

LabPunk wrote:
Yes, it lacks AA, but let's not pretend that frigate AA is good. Frigs lose mass for mass even to Jesters.
Besides, as you said, frigs are supposed to be cannon fodder in later stages, not for air support.

I would like to introduce you to the Cybran frig.

LabPunk wrote:
The point here is that Aeon have a navy that lack any specific weakness.

Yes, except that the most important unit is an utter joke. And almost every shot being dodged.

LabPunk wrote:
and UEF lacks t3 AA,

???

LabPunk wrote:
All other factions lack even a remotely decent naval Exp.

They don't need them anyway. Especially not UEF and Cybran.

LabPunk wrote:
It isn't just the cruiser that provides powerful AA either, Shards are actually pretty great, and their 800 Health just trolls torpedo bombers which deal 750 damage.

Why would I build shards beyond the min 8 mark when I can just build t2 hover flak which doesn’t die to torps to begin with?

LabPunk wrote:
My point is, every factions has weakness and strengths. Aurora get murdered by frigs, yes, the hover has other purposes.

Like what? If it has other purposes why not name them? It’s a good land unit but this is about naval warfare.

Statistics: Posted by ____ — 21 Nov 2018, 20:30

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-21T19:33:36+02:00

Shard is trolling torps? well I dont know

2x Shard = 1 Torp = 240 mass
torp win easily, maybe in bigger numbers it will be better for Shard

btw. I prefere float flak to protect my navy against torps, cant be killed by torps and wreak gunships

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 21 Nov 2018, 19:33

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-21T18:52:49+02:00

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
This thread is not about making Aeon great at everything, it is supposed give a unit, which makes literally 50-95% of a navy force, and is built from min 5 until you won/lost your side, some attention.
The frigate is probably the most important naval unit, when one faction has a crushing weakness in that aspect, while the others are totally fine, we have got ourselves a problem.

I know this should come last, but I'll admit something here.
It's not a crushing weakness. This is the pointless hyperbole that turns people off.
Buffing the Aeon frig makes it top tier, which clearly it shouldn't be.
But, I actually had another look at the entire thread and agree the frig costs too much, reducing costs to 270M, 2.700E, would be good, build time 1.2 too, would less even than Cybran, but allows extra time to build shards.

So I actually now agree with you, the rest of the garbage is here:

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
The aeon destroyer can have the most insane stats ever, if 90% of the shots get dodged those stats don't matter. Also, like every other destroyer, it loses to the Sera destroyer by a mile.

This is simply not true. UEF destro is objectively the strongest.

Aeon destros don't get dodged 90% of the time, even in 1 on 1 micro-ed engagements, let alone in actual engagements.
I also don't understand the pointless hyperbole here.
The Aeon frig does okay against opposing frigs.
It loses to Cybran, ties against UEF and wins against Sera frigs.
Yes, it lacks AA, but let's not pretend that frigate AA is good. Frigs lose mass for mass even to Jesters.
Besides, as you said, frigs are supposed to be cannon fodder in later stages, not for air support.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
The submerged Sera destroyer isn't strong, so I don't get what you want to accomplish with this statement.

Yes, the Aeon cruiser is the best against air units with his high HP and very strong DPS. Sadly, it is almost useless in the other categories, especially the anti-navy weapon is a complete joke. The T2 flak and shields however are nice.

As already stated, multiple times, the Solace is not cost efficient, and most of its torps can be outpaced quite easily. Additionally, you need a T3 air HQ to build it, which almost nobody does, other than the air player. On small navy maps, the game is regularly pretty much over, before anyone even reaches the T3 air stage. So, if it were any good it would be more of a positive for Aeon air than Aeon navy. It’s not good however.

In the current balance the Tempest is still not all that efficient and certainly not a reason to choose Aeon navy over any other navy. Luckily that might change after the patch.

The point here is that Aeon have a navy that lack any specific weakness. Seraphim has a sub weakness, UEF destros are strong but are the only to lose against submerged Sera destros, by a large margin, and UEF lacks t3 AA, and Cybran has no cost effective TML bombardment options, or naval shielding. All other factions lack even a remotely decent naval Exp.
It isn't just the cruiser that provides powerful AA either, Shards are actually pretty great, and their 800 Health just trolls torpedo bombers which deal 750 damage.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
Auroras get absolutely murdered by frigs, are super slow and die to one t1 bomber. They can be good for delaying a probable navy loss, against a competent player however, the aurora will make little difference in almost any other situation.

My point is, every factions has weakness and strengths. Aurora get murdered by frigs, yes, the hover has other purposes.

Statistics: Posted by LabPunk — 21 Nov 2018, 18:52

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-20T23:06:57+02:00

I am pretty sure this is a troll post, but under the impression that there might still be a chance you actually mean all of this, I will still replay anyway.

LabPunk wrote:
Aeon destro and BS will defeat any of the other faction's equivalent 1v1

The aeon destroyer can have the most insane stats ever, if 90% of the shots get dodged those stats don't matter. Also, like every other destroyer, it loses to the Sera destroyer by a mile.

LabPunk wrote:
including submerged Sera destro.

The submerged Sera destroyer isn't strong, so I don't get what you want to accomplish with this statement.

LabPunk wrote:
Aeon have best naval AA

Yes, the Aeon cruiser is the best against air units with his high HP and very strong DPS. Sadly, it is almost useless in the other categories, especially the anti-navy weapon is a complete joke. The T2 flak and shields however are nice.

LabPunk wrote:
and T3 Torp

As already stated, multiple times, the Solace is not cost efficient, and most of its torps can be outpaced quite easily. Additionally, you need a T3 air HQ to build it, which almost nobody does, other than the air player. On small navy maps, the game is regularly pretty much over, before anyone even reaches the T3 air stage. So, if it were any good it would be more of a positive for Aeon air than Aeon navy. It’s not good however.

LabPunk wrote:
and only noteworthy naval Exp.

In the current balance the Tempest is still not all that efficient and certainly not a reason to choose Aeon navy over any other navy. Luckily that might change after the patch.

LabPunk wrote:
Additionally Aeon have best t1 tank, which can also hover in water, having a slightly crappier frigate is perfectly okay.

Auroras get absolutely murdered by frigs, are super slow and die to one t1 bomber. They can be good for delaying a probable navy loss, against a competent player however, the aurora will make little difference in almost any other situation.

LabPunk wrote:
No faction is supposed to be good at everything.

This thread is not about making Aeon great at everything, it is supposed give a unit, which makes literally 50-95% of a navy force, and is built from min 5 until you won/lost your side, some attention.
The frigate is probably the most important naval unit, when one faction has a crushing weakness in that aspect, while the others are totally fine, we have got ourselves a problem.

Statistics: Posted by ____ — 20 Nov 2018, 23:06

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-11-20T17:49:39+02:00

Yolo- wrote:
Aeon navy is by far the weakest,

Aeon destro and BS will defeat any of the other faction's equivalent 1v1, including submerged Sera destro.
Aeon have best naval AA, and T3 Torp, and only noteworthy naval Exp.
Additionally Aeon have best t1 tank, which can also hover in water, having a slightly crappier frigate is perfectly okay. No faction is supposed to be good at everything.
Aeon frigate is still stronger in its niche than say the Rhino, or the Yenzine.

Statistics: Posted by LabPunk — 20 Nov 2018, 17:49

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-09-30T17:12:59+02:00

Yolo- wrote:
I don't understand why everyone assumes everything is balanced properly just because nobody touched it for years.

i try not to post on balance too often, but i think that yolo has the right idea here :>

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 30 Sep 2018, 17:12

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-09-30T15:59:08+02:00

AdmiralZeech wrote:
The thing you need to think about is, does the bad Aeon frigate cause Aeon to lose on water maps (in skilled play)? If not, then obviously Aeon has other strengths to make up for it, such as hover T1 or its other ships.

So, if currently Aeon are balanced on water maps, wouldn't buffing its frigates cause Aeon as a whole to become overpowered? So what would you like to nerf to compensate?

Obviously I thought about it, why do you think I made this post?
Aeon navy is by far the weakest, the only viable strategy for Aeon is Destroyer only spam (and in T3 navy stage it only really works against Cybran). Omen is still pretty bad, especially against UEF. Now setons navy fights are not balanced, because of rock vs beach mass difference, mid and air influence. However Aeon still loses a lot more than other factions and if it wins, it is still slower and more expensive than other factions at winning and killing bases.
I don't understand why everyone assumes everything is balanced properly just because nobody touched it for years.

Statistics: Posted by Yolo- — 30 Sep 2018, 15:59

Re: Aeon Frig is TERRIBLE !!!!!

2018-09-30T14:13:06+02:00

The thing you need to think about is, does the bad Aeon frigate cause Aeon to lose on water maps (in skilled play)? If not, then obviously Aeon has other strengths to make up for it, such as hover T1 or its other ships.

So, if currently Aeon are balanced on water maps, wouldn't buffing its frigates cause Aeon as a whole to become overpowered? So what would you like to nerf to compensate?

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 30 Sep 2018, 14:13