Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-14T01:47:28+02:00

keyser wrote:
Either the structure slowly rises from below

this doesn't work for cybran and uef.

has X% chance of making contact, based on the % completed.
This introduce randomness which isn't healthy for the game.

The best thing i heard so far, is the way chris said "Perhaps make it so missiles don't collide with structures that are <10% built unless that structure is the missile's target?"
Although 10% doesn't seems much, you can pump up 10% facto or T1 radar pretty fast. It might introduce some bugs though.

Well, if randomness is bad, should we eliminate firing randomness for units too? I don't disagree with you. It does slightly decrease strategy and slightly increase luck if you have more randomness. It's just that some randomness also adds a bit of realism too, which sometimes can be preferable, and is basically the whole simulated physics argument. I just prefer it more as a fluke type of issue, like an arty shell hitting a plane or something, rather than as a game mechanic to exploit. I think your solution is ok, but it might have to be like 50% to be a half decent solution for blocking tml. Still, the easiest is to just ban this.

biass wrote:
The terraforming issue is to prevent a number of issued with rolloff, hitoxes, etc and the action of shaping the map to deny passage was not intended by the original or the current game developers.

That's exactly my point, and why I mentioned it to refute Icedreamer. It was NOT an intended effect. Literally just read what I said...so, thanks for agreeing that I'm right!

biass wrote:
Sure, it's probably not fair that you can spam a block, it's also probably "not fair" that you can make a building that one shots your buildings from hilarious ranges, but the game gives you the tools to stop it. You don't fire at places protected by TMD's, so why do you fire at places where the missile can and most likely will be bodyblocked?

This is really funny. You literally claim that tmls, with an obviously contemplated, balanced counter, are OP. Then you imply that it's stupid to use the tml on any target it is basically intended for. If you imply that mexes are stupid to target because they might be blocked...I'm not sure what you think these super smart GPG designers really intended tml to be used for. Apparently not buildings!

Also, I guess if their "intended design" which you already admitted had flaws, shouldn't be tweaked, you must be pretty angry about literally every balance patch in the history of FAF...can someone please let them all we need to go back to GPG balance because it's perfect? Thanks! "lmao"

Strogo wrote:
If structure is under construction and has <200 hp (could be any number or %) and it's not an actual target, missile will destroy it and then apply full damage to the target.

Well, this is almost exactly my first suggestion. The only exception would be a building with 5800-6000 hp...so I guess the cybran HQ.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 14 Mar 2018, 01:47

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T23:38:40+02:00

That's pretty epic stuff.

Statistics: Posted by JoonasTo — 13 Mar 2018, 23:38

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T23:07:47+02:00

It could be like that:

object

That is not "actually go through" (as missile still disappear), but in terms of damage it is same.

Statistics: Posted by Strogo — 13 Mar 2018, 23:07

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T21:26:58+02:00

Strogo wrote:
Here is the fix.

If structure is under construction and has <200 hp (could be any number or %) and it's not an actual target, missile will destroy it and then apply full damage to the target.

That is great... if only you could make missile not explode on impact but actually go trought... also if building is blocked that way it shortenes TML path and make it harder to defend with TMD xDDD but ok that is a minor thing

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 13 Mar 2018, 21:26

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T20:20:29+02:00

Here is the fix.

If structure is under construction and has <200 hp (could be any number or %) and it's not an actual target, missile will destroy it and then apply full damage to the target.

object

Statistics: Posted by Strogo — 13 Mar 2018, 20:20

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T11:37:19+02:00

biass wrote:
This game never has and if it wants to keep its playerbase, never will be so simple as to click on a button and instant result.

I disagree! Ctrl K always works!

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 13 Mar 2018, 11:37

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T08:11:22+02:00

You would have a better case if you were not bringing up stupid examples.

Steel_Panther wrote:
"Using terraforming intentionally to block units/mess with pathfinding, also flattening an obstacle to allow units through is not allowed." This has absolutely nothing to do with "internal engine safeguards."

The terraforming issue is to prevent a number of issued with rolloff, hitoxes, etc and the action of shaping the map to deny passage was not intended by the original or the current game developers.

Launching a simulated projectile, and having it collide with the first object the missile hits, be it a mountain, a shield, a body block, most likely was intended. This game never has and if it wants to keep its playerbase, never will be so simple as to click on a button and instant result. Sure, it's probably not fair that you can spam a block, it's also probably "not fair" that you can make a building that one shots your buildings from hilarious ranges, but the game gives you the tools to stop it. You don't fire at places protected by TMD's, so why do you fire at places where the missile can and most likely will be bodyblocked?

It's probably not the best to act like you're smarter then the GPG team when making suggestions lmao

Statistics: Posted by biass — 13 Mar 2018, 08:11

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T08:02:49+02:00

Either the structure slowly rises from below

this doesn't work for cybran and uef.

has X% chance of making contact, based on the % completed.

This introduce randomness which isn't healthy for the game.

The best thing i heard so far, is the way chris said "Perhaps make it so missiles don't collide with structures that are <10% built unless that structure is the missile's target?"
Although 10% doesn't seems much, you can pump up 10% facto or T1 radar pretty fast. It might introduce some bugs though.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 13 Mar 2018, 08:02

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-13T07:36:48+02:00

I don't have a problem with it being used to defend engies against labs, because like i said, I do think unfinished buildings should be able to take some fire. Unfinished pgens or factories blocking enemy tank fire is fine, but blocking tml makes a far bigger difference, in a way that I think does break the game balance. Even early on, a single engi is usually worth quite a bit less than a t2 mex at the earliest stages where a tml can show up.

IceDreamer, it isn't an exploit ONLY when "it takes advantage of internal engine safeguards." Just look at the list of banned exploits. Literally first on the list: "Using terraforming intentionally to block units/mess with pathfinding, also flattening an obstacle to allow units through is not allowed." This has absolutely nothing to do with "internal engine safeguards." It just messes up the game. To "intentionally to block...pathfinding" of a missile, also seems pretty close to that to me! Or how about "Pausing to try and gain some advantage i.e dodging snipes." An exploit is anything that gives an unfair advantage to another player, that wasn't intended by the game design. Just because a decade ago the game designers didn't think of the problem, or couldn't think of a decent solution to it, doesn't mean the problem should just be allowed. It is obvious to me that the balance is intended to require t2 tech to build tmd, to counter tml. This breaks that balance. It's as simple as that. It's why MMLs can outrange t2 pd, but not ravagers. it's why t1 arty outrange t1 pd, but not t2 pd. It's why t3 mobile arty outrange ravagers. etc.

If you argue it's not an exploit, it's hard for me to see how a 1% constructed 1hp radar ought to immediately have the full final structure available for blocking. I agree Zlo's solution could be a useful compromise. Either the structure slowly rises from below, or maybe it just has X% chance of making contact, based on the % completed. While I still think these are half measures that don't fully correct for how this breaks the balance, they still comply with the simulated physics model, but with a process that is both more fair and more realistic, and therefore better.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 13 Mar 2018, 07:36

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-12T15:06:22+02:00

yeah... and that allows for all sorts of tricks regarding strong projectiles and weak targets...
E.G. Shield with 1 HP will stop a mavor shell (it is like 16000 damage currently)
mobile shield will stop an OC... just like t1 scout will also stop OC if you hit it accidentally trying to hit valuable units.

Building that just started with 0-1 hp is also unpenetratable and unpassable.

imho for now we have to deal with this, but i think it would be nice to make some adjustments.... like TML can go trought buildings with less than X hp or less than X% completion. but it is not easy and gonna get complicated very fast, you can still use air units to block TML, SML, SMD, ect. missiles also block lasers...

Edit: or maybe lower hitbox for unfinished buildings, or even make it rise from the bottom... maybe the whole model will be like that... blueprint will be transparent for missiles but it will get "filled" as construction is happening. that would make sence but it is to complicated to impliment. For now we know that game has certain rules about how it works and we have to accept them, just like with engy attack move from factory witch is also an exploit. We can ban certain bizzare stuff, but what to ban and what to leave is a tought decigion to make.
Supcom is really nice when you can even defend your units by blocking shots with other units buy standing on the way... but ally units can easy shoot trought your own units, that is not realistic, you gotta have compromises.

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 12 Mar 2018, 15:06

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-12T14:15:33+02:00

Not an exploit, and not comparable to the transport drop situation.

The transport drop situation, where building below a landing craft causes it to blow the units, is an exploit because it takes advantage of internal engine safeguards. That is, the engine is programmed to do what it does to prevent the game from crashing, NOT to reflect some level of realism. The devs realised that once a transport is landing, it is locked into its process, but players can still build below. I am guessing that this caused big issues, which they decided to fix by blowing up the units.

Using partially constructed buildings to block incoming projectiles is part of what makes supcom supcom: a real, simulated engine. Yeah, sometimes simulated physics means a clever or knowledgeable player can think their way out of a bad spot, but that's kinda the point of a strategy game imo, a battles of brains.

The difference here is that one is using a result of coding meant to avoid an ingame situation, and one is using a result of code deliberately constructed to allow the action.

Argue the balance implications if you like, but it isn't an exploit.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 12 Mar 2018, 14:15

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-12T12:21:06+02:00

Anihilnine wrote:
ppls also use this to defend engies against labs

Not really the same thing because that's rewarding engie micro and it pays a pretty hefty apm cost.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 12 Mar 2018, 12:21

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-12T11:49:05+02:00

Damn cheaters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m22CnQ90m6M

https://youtu.be/U30wl4VqOOM?t=9m20s "Nice little block" - Gyle

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 12 Mar 2018, 11:49

Re: Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-12T11:35:53+02:00

ppls also use this to defend engies against labs

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 12 Mar 2018, 11:35

Unfinished building blocking "exploit"

2018-03-12T06:10:14+02:00

I believe this could be properly considered a balance issue, where people build t1 radars (or other buildings, like shield generators) to block tml. It could also fit under the realm of bannable exploits: /viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11322. See, "Anything else that is breaking the game in some fashion."

See, e.g, at 9:10 to 9:25 youtube video time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce2oIXL_qZU&t=628s

I think that unfinished buildings ought to provide some resistance to enemy fire (therefore a "balance" issue), but particularly in the tml case this seems like a clear exploit to me. The literally 1-2 hp partial radar, that cost 5 around mass, can completely block a 180 mass, 6000 damage tml immediately before hitting its target. To me it looks identical to the "build a factory underneath an enemy transport dropping units" exploit. "Oh, you figured out a way to basically cheat the way the game is supposed to work."

Possible alternatives:

1) It would make some sense to me for the missile to pass through and destroy the blocking target and have its final damage reduced by a proportionate amount (the hp of the partially constructed building). But it's also an unrealistic way to look at how a missile would operate (anything other than a minimal barrier should stop and detonate it).

2) Increase tml firing arc so that they rarely hit buildings in front of their target. (But this may have other issues)

3) If we don't want to bother changing game mechanics, just make this a bannable offense because it is clearly intentional and breaks the game.

I have rarely seen this issue except when people intentionally try to block tml missiles, so I would think 3 is the best option.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 12 Mar 2018, 06:10