Forged Alliance Forever

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-03-19T10:24:21+02:00

Hi,

Here is a replay - #7509372
shard without radar vs torp - 63 dmg done
shard vs torp - 133dmg done to bomber
Thuderhead vs torp - 140dmg done
housel smt smt vs torp - 154dmg done
Trident master race vs torp - 200dmg done

Shard has added radar in Pre-August 2016 balance mod EDI release http://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=15986&p=161629#p161629 The effect it has is for single AA boats to be able to shoot planes earlier improving its effective DPS in some situations.

Main problem of Shard is cost and torp bomber.

Another way to buff the shard vs torpedo bombers alone is not by increasing its 750 HP but by decreasing them and reducing the cost using the overkill dynamic which makes torpedo bombers cost less effective.
One drawback of hover flak though is its speed when compared to shard.

While testing always make sure to download the latest version in the vault.

Please test and leave feedback if you like the changes in http://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15987.

For suggestions for other areas to look at, please post in http://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15989

Pre-August 2016 balance mod EDI will address players concerns when they are valid and try to reflect appropriate changes. Pre-August 2016 balance mod EDI moves fast when something can be fixed easily and doesnt waste time with introducing new gimmick things that serve no purpose of improving the game.

Statistics: Posted by Evildrew — 19 Mar 2018, 10:24

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-03-02T10:39:24+02:00

For me it's that simple: Aeon has no AA on their frigate, so they should have some small advantage over the other factions frigates.
(More HP or more range or more DPS or more speed)

And NO, auroras don't help much to kompensate that, only on small maps.

Statistics: Posted by PsychoBoB — 02 Mar 2018, 10:39

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-03-01T23:27:31+02:00

Seems like people still dont care so more data to work with....
Aeon frigate - hp/mass - 6,39 DPs/mass- 0,206 range 32 To use full dps it have to turn it's hull into a broadside position and turn it's rear turret.
Cybran- hp/mass - 7,6 DPs/mass- 0,2572 range 28 Starts using it's full dps from the get go as it have front mounted gun.
Uef- hp/mass - 7,56 DPs/mass- 0,179 range 28 Same
Sera- hp/mass - 7,408 DPs/mass- 0,204 range 28 have to turn it's gun

All above apart from Aeon also have guess what AA...

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 01 Mar 2018, 23:27

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-22T07:00:09+02:00

graph.png

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 22 Feb 2018, 07:00

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-22T05:46:42+02:00

1) Label axis
2) Wtf are all the units on the side?

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 22 Feb 2018, 05:46

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-20T04:22:36+02:00

Shard should be the early t1 - early t2 unit. It doesn't actually matter if Shard is OP against torp bombers or not because at some point it becomes obselite by t2 hover flak which is immortal to torp bombers and OP against gunships and pretty much everything that is slower than Strat.

Here's graph based on DPS/mass numbers and total mass investments assuming you have to build single t1 naval facotry or land fac+t2 HQ to build units. graph.png

Flak will always win Shard. My concept lets you build Shard in early game and stay efficient compare to t2 flak much longer than both current and "Gala" concept.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 20 Feb 2018, 04:22

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-19T19:36:12+02:00

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 19 Feb 2018, 19:36

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-19T19:25:04+02:00

Aeon isn't a faction where you can just make a single multipurpose unit like you can with Sera or Cybran. You need to combine navy, some hover (shields at T2), and air, which is the best at T2. They also have many other things to compensate for their bad T1 navy

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 19 Feb 2018, 19:25

Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

2018-02-19T17:44:07+02:00

I'm not sure but it actually looks like you have omitted one single flaw and that is, for each 2 shards you get roughly one more frigate on the other side of the barricade. Let's say you have 5k mass in navy, one side is aeon and is doing a mix of units 5 to 1 while second is full on Thunderhead spam. This way you get 16 aeon frigates and 3 shards vs 18 uef frigates. The AA of Aeon ammounts to 105dps and 2100hp while the dps of UEF navy is 180 and 38160hp.
Now just get rid of 2 uef frigates and switch them to 2 torps and you get rid of all aeon AA in 1.5 pass after wchich the aeon is totally defensless. And if we actually switch to sera or cybran the numbers are even worse with cybran sporting 320 dps and sera 240 dps. The 1hp buff might certainly be brutal but it may be accompanied by slight mass cost inrease or simply we can try tweaking the dps/range on shard to make it more cost efficient than it is now.

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 19 Feb 2018, 17:44

Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

2018-02-19T17:25:45+02:00

One thing to keep in mind about FAF in general is that large numbers of any unit perform horribly due to the pathfinding issues we have in game. The more shards we add into the navy the worse the navy as a whole will perform.

Frigates are a prime example of this, you can get 40 frigates for the price of one Summit or 30 for the price of one Neptune. It's a choice in favour of the frigates in most cases.

But 160 frigates vs 4 Summits and 120 frigates vs 3 Neptunes is a choice where almost always you will want the Summits or the Neptunes simply because you need to do 16 commands to get the frigates moving, while 1 command will work for the Summits and the Neptunes.

So if the increased micro for the torping side is an issue, the same can be said for the naval side. In this case I think the issue is worse for the naval side because of FAF pathfinding lag, while split attack is a fairly simple and robust procedure. If we do need to force more micro for one side, I'd rather it be on the torping side.

Preferable to both would be an increase in effectiveness vs planes though. This ofc is harder to achieve without ruining gunship vs shard balance but I think it's worth it to try out higher damage values. It is 80% of the cost of a T1 AA with 50% dps and 400% buildtime after all.

BTW. Nice work on the Sera AA fix, they seem to work quite nicely now

Statistics: Posted by JoonasTo — 19 Feb 2018, 17:25

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-19T16:39:09+02:00

I think Shards with a hp buff would make them OP. Also see this:
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15809&start=150#p161020

Statistics: Posted by Yolo- — 19 Feb 2018, 16:39

Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

2018-02-19T16:31:38+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
Main problem of Shard is cost and torp bomber. You want cheap more accessable AA to cover frigates here and there all over the map to shoot down air which other frigates do on their own. The suggested change is a step in other direction.

Currently Shards are a bit bad against torp bombers because single torp can kill shard in single pass and repeat it 2 more times. If i'm not mistaken Shards survive mass sufficient amount of torps only after reaching 8 vs 4 number, but not sure about that. This means 1hp increace is actually a hard buff for Shard.

In suggested conept t2 torp will still kill 400 mass cost Shard for 2 pass instead of 2 separated Shards. It also makes Shard work like Cruiser with low HP and high DPS and I'm pretty sure we could do it a bit otherwise.

Remember old Cybran frigates? When you didn't bother to build Cruiser because you could get 9 frigates with half of Cruiser's DPS but with 5 times bigger HP which made such AA much less vulnerable to torp bombers.

I suggest 2 different ways:

1) Shard cost 120->80m, Bt 2400->1600: this will make Shard more accessable on t1 and more efficient vs torp bombers
2) HP 750->755;

Hello Apofenas, thank you for your reply.

After reading your post i went into sandbox and tested the shards vs equivalent mass cost torp bomber. The torp bombers even win in 5:10 ratio. But I have to say that the shards are already quite strong in big numbers.

You are completly right: A 1hp increase to their hp is an increadibly strong buff to Shards. Imo it makes them actually OP. Some random amount of Shards with 751+ hp would always win against a mass equivalent amount of torp bombers. To compare this with a cruiser: ~60% of mass equivalent torp bombers would win agaisnt a cruiser.
Another issue will be the late game. I can see how someone spams a lot of cheap op Shards like 50+ to deal with many torp bombers. The opponent actually would have to micro his torp bombers a lot so that only 2 torp bombers attack one shard, because if more attack one shard, you lose a lot of dps.
With this I come to the conclusion that buffing the hp is a terrible idea.

Your other suggestion sounds interesting, because 75% of its masscost would allow to spam more shards or give some shards the chance to be able to vet in the fight. In a normal engagement it would be very rare for a shard to vet, because you would have several shards and they gain vet based on the damage they do, so reaching 1vet level would be rather rare.
However I think that making Shards more spamable might be the wrong approach.

In the end I still think Gala's idea is the best, but lowering the mass cost of shards might be worth trying out.

Statistics: Posted by Yolo- — 19 Feb 2018, 16:31

Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

2018-02-19T07:05:59+02:00

Yolo- wrote:
For the aeon navy changes I suggest:

Gala's idea for the Shard:
V1: Aeon T1 AA boat: 120m/1200e -> 400m/3600e, 35 dps -> 140 dps, build time 800 -> 2400, HP 750->850, basically 1/5 of aeon cruiser but less range/intel and slightly less dps overall, but slightly more HP. Usually dies to 1 torp, but also kills that torp, with a slightly worse mass inefficiency than a cruiser. Designed to make 1-2 with a navy rush to stop aeon being useless vs any air whatsoever at early stages, and avoid need to invest all the way into a cruiser. Requires micro for maximum effectiveness. Was previously unused due to the pitiful damage output.

Main problem of Shard is cost and torp bomber. You want cheap more accessable AA to cover frigates here and there all over the map to shoot down air which other frigates do on their own. The suggested change is a step in other direction.

Currently Shards are a bit bad against torp bombers because single torp can kill shard in single pass and repeat it 2 more times. If i'm not mistaken Shards survive mass sufficient amount of torps only after reaching 8 vs 4 number, but not sure about that. This means 1hp increace is actually a hard buff for Shard.

In suggested conept t2 torp will still kill 400 mass cost Shard for 2 pass instead of 2 separated Shards. It also makes Shard work like Cruiser with low HP and high DPS and I'm pretty sure we could do it a bit otherwise.

Remember old Cybran frigates? When you didn't bother to build Cruiser because you could get 9 frigates with half of Cruiser's DPS but with 5 times bigger HP which made such AA much less vulnerable to torp bombers.

I suggest 2 different ways:

1) Shard cost 120->80m, Bt 2400->1600: this will make Shard more accessable on t1 and more efficient vs torp bombers
2) HP 750->755;

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 19 Feb 2018, 07:05

Re: Balance patch 3696 Feedback Thread

2018-02-18T23:44:43+02:00

Why can we not have more changes in the next patch? I really don't want to wait several months for some navy changes. At least make some aeon navy changes next patch, involving the Tempest, Omen and Shard. You don't even have to think a lot about it, just change some stats. I would like to play beta games and testing new t3 land, aeon navy, land and air T4 buildtime changes in lots of Setons games. But NOT naval T4 buildtime changes, those make 0 sense!

For the aeon navy changes I suggest:

Gala's idea for the Shard:

V1: Aeon T1 AA boat: 120m/1200e -> 400m/3600e, 35 dps -> 140 dps, build time 800 -> 2400, HP 750->850, basically 1/5 of aeon cruiser but less range/intel and slightly less dps overall, but slightly more HP. Usually dies to 1 torp, but also kills that torp, with a slightly worse mass inefficiency than a cruiser. Designed to make 1-2 with a navy rush to stop aeon being useless vs any air whatsoever at early stages, and avoid need to invest all the way into a cruiser. Requires micro for maximum effectiveness. Was previously unused due to the pitiful damage output.

V2: aeon t1 aa boat: build time 2400 -> 1600 (more in line with other t1 tech, makes it easier to rush if needed)

Omen: Let's try a small range buff of 10, so the Omen has 110 range and has a better chance against any other Battleship.

Tempest: Maybe reduce mass cost by like 2k, so it costs 22k mass. Or maybe change it how Gala did it in his balance mod:

Tempest: elevation from -5 -> -5.8 (to avoid all battleship ground fire, highest possible before it can be ground fired, other tempest and ground fire strat still can however)

Currently Tempest is not a mass efficient unit, and this small change should give it much greater flexibility and durability in the t3 navy wars it is most often found in.

Also you can give some ideas to those 3 unit changes.

Please take those changes in the beta patch, and I will play beta games!

Statistics: Posted by Yolo- — 18 Feb 2018, 23:44

Re: I demand a major buff to aeon navy.

2018-02-18T19:17:25+02:00

I think we should try Gala's idea how to change the aa boat:

V1: Aeon T1 AA boat: 120m/1200e -> 400m/3600e, 35 dps -> 140 dps, build time 800 -> 2400, HP 750->850, basically 1/5 of aeon cruiser but less range/intel and slightly less dps overall, but slightly more HP. Usually dies to 1 torp, but also kills that torp, with a slightly worse mass inefficiency than a cruiser. Designed to make 1-2 with a navy rush to stop aeon being useless vs any air whatsoever at early stages, and avoid need to invest all the way into a cruiser. Requires micro for maximum effectiveness. Was previously unused due to the pitiful damage output.

V2: aeon t1 aa boat: build time 2400 -> 1600 (more in line with other t1 tech, makes it easier to rush if needed)

Statistics: Posted by Yolo- — 18 Feb 2018, 19:17