Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-08-10T00:45:08+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
So you need to snipe the power that will be centrally located in the most secure part of the map for your mirror in order to deal with 3 perma-cloaked tanks stopping you from building the expansion on your side of the map unless you send tanks to babysit your engies. Actually you'd need to send several engies as well as the same amount of tanks at a minimum as the tanks could just kill the first engineer and still accomplish denying the expansion.

Works well totally balanced 10/10

If someone has the capability to spam strats + t3 scouts to find your cloak ACU and you had nothing stopping the snipe, cloak wasn't the problem.

I'll respond in similar fashion as you have. "If you would kindly read the post" I actually made, I specifically quoted only your criticism which was related solely to players being defeated, but with a completely undiscoverable com. I didn't say anything about his other ideas, because he didn't go into very much detail. Even so, his idea clearly contemplated that these, which you described as "perma-cloaked" units could be countered by other units as well (...not "perma" in my mind), making your above situation irrelevant anyway.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 10 Aug 2017, 00:45

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-08-01T09:02:28+02:00

Wesmania wrote:
You've been abusive and condescending to other people this entire thread, I just wanted to point it out. It's not really my problem whether you acknowlege this.

Both sides are abusive and condescending, as is the nature of this balance forums. the difference between you and i is that you're trying to bring it as the point of discussion as a cop-out to addressing the actual points, like for example, the T3 scout omnipresence, which you carefully chose to ignore, again.

I try not to care about it, i lower my quality standards by orders of magnitude in faf to make the time spent not weigh a toll on my sanity, but the huge issues with you, and other community members not responding to points and instead saying "lol u didn't read idiot look again r u illiterate?" is something i gotta comment on, its rampant. If that attitude goes away, you'll start to see people actually consider what you write here, and if not? your peers'll continue to come here and laugh at the threads, like they always do

ya boi wrote:
I specifically mentioned (offensive) stealth shenanigans and that I'm not sure whether tele combo won't make it too OP, so I don't understand where your mockery is coming from. I imagine telecloak would make it easier for an ACU to teleport between enemy expansions, but wihout mazer it'd take a while to dismantle each one, and it's really something you could do with cloak com drops or regular drops anyway. It could be more of an issue on massive maps perhaps, but you don't have radar coverage on these anyway, and anything built by such an ACU can be scouted anyway.

It's not reeally about """"expansions"""" more then it is one of two things:

A: Omni are built forward (often in front base and given to a back slot for running costs) and telecloaking behind the back slots base might be out of omni range and then you have a really powerful "comdrop" of sorts that is both frustrating to the enemy player as it is difficult to properly punish

and B: making a quick detour to snipe omni before proceeding with whatever you were doing, this isnt big an issue, but it exists,

there is a point to be made about cybran being able to cloaktele and also having the cheapest experimental in the game, but i dont think it is that big of a deal.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 01 Aug 2017, 09:02

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-08-01T08:43:06+02:00

Make cloak cost the same as SACU cloak. Job done. Wait for cries of op or up. Readjust until tears are minimal.

Also, it's not easy to scout a cloak com making an exp unless you happen to luck spot with random t3 scout flying over it for 1 second. Or happen to have random vision and luck zoom in on it.

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 01 Aug 2017, 08:43

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-08-01T08:36:10+02:00

biass wrote:
How cute

You've been abusive and condescending to other people this entire thread, I just wanted to point it out. It's not really my problem whether you acknowlege this.

biass wrote:
Sure dude, Cloak, T3, Tele coms, sounds good? im sure people will just sit in base with their wasted upgrade and do "defense" like you want to believe

I specifically mentioned (offensive) stealth shenanigans and that I'm not sure whether tele combo won't make it too OP, so I don't understand where your mockery is coming from. I imagine telecloak would make it easier for an ACU to teleport between enemy expansions, but wihout mazer it'd take a while to dismantle each one, and it's really something you could do with cloak com drops or regular drops anyway. It could be more of an issue on massive maps perhaps, but you don't have radar coverage on these anyway, and anything built by such an ACU can be scouted anyway.

Statistics: Posted by Wesmania — 01 Aug 2017, 08:36

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-08-01T08:06:52+02:00

Wesmania wrote:
Biass, you're being a hypocritical and oblivious asshole again.

How cute

Wesmania wrote:
IMO the one reason cloak would be OP if it was cheaper is because of the mazer. If we moved cloak upgrade onto the mazer / torpedo arm,

Sure dude, Cloak, T3, Tele coms, sounds good? im sure people will just sit in base with their wasted upgrade and do "defense" like you want to believe

and im the oblivious one kappa

Cloak is not "op" because of the mazer, for one cloak is not op, and for two incase you forgot cloak renders you almost invisible?

we're waiting for a counter argument to the "t3 scouts are not free and invulnerable" part but you've both resorted to insults, how sad

also @ftx the dude has his own mod and that is what i think he was talking about

Statistics: Posted by biass — 01 Aug 2017, 08:06

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-08-01T08:04:37+02:00

IMO the one reason cloak would be OP if it was cheaper is because of the mazer. If we moved cloak upgrade onto the mazer / torpedo arm, you wouldn't be able to make an ACU / base killing machine, but a cloak ACU would still be useful for stealth shenanigans and OCing exps. Making it cost as much as mazer (and keeping the running cost) would be pretty viable then. I don't know if telecloak would be OP in the very late game, though.

biass wrote:

Biass, you're being a hypocritical and oblivious asshole again.

Statistics: Posted by Wesmania — 01 Aug 2017, 08:04

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T19:47:32+02:00

So you need to snipe the power that will be centrally located in the most secure part of the map for your mirror in order to deal with 3 perma-cloaked tanks stopping you from building the expansion on your side of the map unless you send tanks to babysit your engies. Actually you'd need to send several engies as well as the same amount of tanks at a minimum as the tanks could just kill the first engineer and still accomplish denying the expansion.

Works well totally balanced 10/10

If someone has the capability to spam strats + t3 scouts to find your cloak ACU and you had nothing stopping the snipe, cloak wasn't the problem.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 31 Jul 2017, 19:47

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T19:33:20+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
If you would kindly read the post above mine you would realize I'm talking about a theoretical unit ability that would make units totally invisible.

To be on topic, I think that GC Omni is kind of stupid and I don't really understand why it has that capability in the game. I'd much rather get rid of that as it really only serves to hard counter cloak acus (and I guess step on people hiding in water?). T3 scouts are not some omnipresent factor in the game. You can't always have spy planes over the ACU just like you can't always have scout planes over a stealth ACU. Unless you're a Cybran player that has a deathly allergy to making air and maa, I guess.

He didn't say explicitly, but it seems pretty obvious to me there would be some energy drain for using the ability.
You assumed it would be free to run, I think it's far more reasonable to assume it would have a cost, based on what he said (Otherwise why not have it activate automatically instead of manually?) and how the game works (especially since any stealth or cloak currently does). You are correct that otherwise it would be horrible. I just used the assumption that would not make the idea moronic. And units which reveal the cloaked units take us right back to where we are with cloak and spy planes, gc.

Yes T3 scouts are not omnipresent but I think it's a lot cheaper to temporarily get enough scouts over a base when you have an opportunity to snipe a cloaked com, than it is to get the upgrade.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 31 Jul 2017, 19:33

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T18:30:04+02:00

If you would kindly read the post above mine you would realize I'm talking about a theoretical unit ability that would make units totally invisible.

To be on topic, I think that GC Omni is kind of stupid and I don't really understand why it has that capability in the game. I'd much rather get rid of that as it really only serves to hard counter cloak acus (and I guess step on people hiding in water?). T3 scouts are not some omnipresent factor in the game. You can't always have spy planes over the ACU just like you can't always have scout planes over a stealth ACU. Unless you're a Cybran player that has a deathly allergy to making air and maa, I guess.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 31 Jul 2017, 18:30

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T17:54:37+02:00

FtXCommando wrote:
Can't make a unit totally invisible otherwise Cybran players will get the upgrade and go afk after they lose and wait for their opponent to quit out of frustration at the fact their ACU is not possible to find without groundfiring every part of the map.

Maybe...kill their pgens?

The question is definitely not whether or not cloak is weak, it is...it's whether buffing it makes cybran too strong overall.

Biass, I think it's not possible to prove a negative case like this, the way you want...."with replays." People almost never use it because it's nowhere near worth the cost. I have seen probably a hundred mazor coms, but only maybe 3 cloaked coms. Shall I show you a replay where someone didn't build it then? How many replays where a cybran player didn't build cloak will be sufficient for you?

It's obviously implied in the argument that buffing something of Cybran wouldn't make it op. Maybe it would be then, but as it stands it seems pretty useless because of t3 scouts and GCs.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 31 Jul 2017, 17:54

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T15:15:23+02:00

Personally I don't see the idea doing anything besides pissing off everyone in the game because they have cloaked units raiding their mexes and they cant do anything against the units while the units just sit waiting for engies to rebuild. It's not introducing anything fun or strategic to the game.

Also, there's a policy against adding new units unless they are 100% totally necessary so your best bet is to see if you could get people to help you make a mod for this.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 31 Jul 2017, 15:15

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T14:28:27+02:00

Adding a track feature so an arrow points to the ACU direction without revealing its position ? so then you send rogue or cast the reveal ability

Statistics: Posted by Franck83 — 31 Jul 2017, 14:28

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T14:23:48+02:00

Can't make a unit totally invisible otherwise Cybran players will get the upgrade and go afk after they lose and wait for their opponent to quit out of frustration at the fact their ACU is not possible to find without groundfiring every part of the map.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 31 Jul 2017, 14:23

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T14:01:42+02:00

ZeRen wrote:
so I talked about this with Jagged and he told me to write on forum...

so why is cloak bad?
- super expensive
- give only 15k HP
- omni reveal ACU model (not show it is radar blip, like you know mole under radar)
- drain -3000 e
- can be targeted

I thinking about to release true invisibility ability in my mod for rogue unit class. It seems that there is a setmesh off possibility in the engine. We can hide the strategic icon too. Don't tried it yet but i think we can do it (although it seems to be more a hack than a GPG planned feature).

Because of this topic, i wanna have your opinion with the possibility to make two level of invisibility :

Level one.
- True invisibility (no mesh / no icon / no radar) unit that can be manualy actived. So it can be seen or targeted until the unit move or fire. So a move reveal the unit. Maybe we can add a manual reveal ability with some radius to some units.

Level Two (Advanced invisibilty ability)
- True invisibility (no mesh / no icon / no radar) unit that can be manualy actived. So it can't be seen or targeted until the unit fire. Maybe we can add a manual reveal ability with some radius to some units. here too.

Maybe we can add the possibility for higher cloaked level units to see lower cloacked unit level (the battle for invisibility )

Statistics: Posted by Franck83 — 31 Jul 2017, 14:01

Re: Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

2017-07-31T11:10:47+02:00

ZeRen wrote:
This_Guy wrote:I just want to comment and say i have seen pro players (i.e. Turinturambar) use cloak mazor and kill people in base before. Most teamgames dont have omni in base btw, and hold fire so they dont see you shoot until too late is nice. I have no real say in this discussion, just wanted to add it can work.

one example of succcess, pls dont make me laugh you...

Please note I did say i have no real say it this topic. I dont have much of an opinion one way or another. But you said you never see it used... i said i have... and you dismissed it? Thats not really great discussion. I have seen turin do it more than once, soviet pride i saw do it a dozen times when he was playing just a few months ago. Im not saying its not underused/under power or w/e. Just that i HAVE seen people use it, where you say its never used. So please dont mock me, im not abusing you or anything, just making a comment to the discussion.

Thank you.

Statistics: Posted by This_Guy — 31 Jul 2017, 11:10