Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-29T02:43:57+02:00

Morale - don't f**king lose navy!

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 29 Jun 2017, 02:43

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-28T21:34:40+02:00

Cyborg16 wrote:
Plasma_Wolf wrote:Strategic bombers are more expensive than cruisers. 2100 mass vs 2000 mass. They also cost way more energy so you need time and resources to build T3 Pgens. You also need to upgrade your air factory to T3, while cruisers are available at T2.

Did you see the second set of numbers I posted (top of this page)? Aeon cruisers are the only ones to nearly/actually destroy strats 1v1, and seraphim cruisers barely scratch strats. If well timed coordinated, presumably most cruisers would only aim at the first strat.

Seraphim cruisers have flak, not SAM, so obviously they're not as good against strat bombers as the other cruisers. If using Air to kill navy is what you have to do, you get T3 gunships against all navies apart from the seraphim and you use Strat bombers against the Seraphim.

This is for when there's a lot of T3 navy present (gunships do better damage than torpedo bombers in large numbers because they don't have to do passes). In case you're Aeon, you use T3 torpedo bombers of course. They're more efficient.

So, strat bombers against Seraphim navy and gunships against other navy. This is simply because of how the cruisers work.

As for "they're doing badly", cruisers are designed to kill air and strat bombers are designed to kill something in a very specific place. So they're good at killing each other. There's nothing wrong with that. Cruisers should die against something that's being used to kill them, but is also more expensive than the cruiser. And since you're so fond of doing numbers, please calculate how much cruisers you can build for upgrading an air factory to T3, building a T3 Pgen and building a strat bomber. This is how many cruisers you have against you when you get the first strat bomber out.

Also test using 10 strat bombers against 10 cruisers and see how many there are left then. Actually, test 20 strat bombers against 21 cruisers, which is the actual mass equivalent cost.

As FtxCommando said, something is wrong if your opponent is using cruisers to effectively kill off all dedicated AA in your naval group.

Stop thinking in linear one-unit-vs-one-unit terms. Use combinations. If your opponent is building strat bombers you will soon have enough ASF to deny air all over the map. Your opponent has to build his own ASF. If ASF are matching, he may decide to use the strat bombers somewhere. Two choices, use them against your navy or your army at the front. Then your ASF have to be at the front as well to prevent that. Whatever your opponent put in Strat bombers, you have extra in ASFs so you're good to win the air fight. Any attack is a waste on his side because you've got the control over there. Reclaim will be yours.

The same happens if it happens over navy. If your opponent uses strat bombers to kill your cruisers in your navy and then have the surviving strat bombers kill the rest of your navy, then your ASF will easily kill the strat bombers if they go alone, and all of your navy survives. If he accompanies his Strat bombers with the ASF, then he's going to lose all air in exchange for (maybe, just very much maybe) your navy. If you don't have enough ASF to kill his air (ASF + strats) and he can kill your navy, then he's seriously outperforming you.

Suppose he's got all air (strat bombers and ASF) against your cruisers and ASF. Do you think that it's a bad thing if strat bombers are not all targeted right away? ASFs being targeted by cruisers are going to die quickly and en masse. Even if all cruisers are gone in one Strat bomber pass. Then your ASFs outnumber his. In the end you have ASFs left and he's got nothing. Granted, you lost cruisers but he's got nothing at all.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 28 Jun 2017, 21:34

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-28T11:08:29+02:00

I have no idea what kind of games you're playing where your opponent is spamming strats to kill your cruisers and you have nothing to respond. If strats are coming out at a rate that they are crushing your cruisers, then you should be getting sams in the water with SACUS or engies. It's like complaining that your army of 30 flak is dying to 1 cybran strat.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 28 Jun 2017, 11:08

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-28T10:33:37+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Strategic bombers are more expensive than cruisers. 2100 mass vs 2000 mass. They also cost way more energy so you need time and resources to build T3 Pgens. You also need to upgrade your air factory to T3, while cruisers are available at T2.

Did you see the second set of numbers I posted (top of this page)? Aeon cruisers are the only ones to nearly/actually destroy strats 1v1, and seraphim cruisers barely scratch strats. If well timed coordinated, presumably most cruisers would only aim at the first strat.

Statistics: Posted by Cyborg16 — 28 Jun 2017, 10:33

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-27T09:26:36+02:00

Cyborg16 wrote:
What about strat bombers vs cruisers? It seems a bit much that some strat bombers can one-hit kill some cruisers, when destroyers take 3 hits. A 20% HP boost to cruisers would be enough to prevent that.

Strategic bombers are more expensive than cruisers. 2100 mass vs 2000 mass. They also cost way more energy so you need time and resources to build T3 Pgens. You also need to upgrade your air factory to T3, while cruisers are available at T2.

keyser wrote:Actually i thought at first that this topic would be to complain that you can t really go full t2 air, skip naval and still be able to compete xD

You pretty-much can in some cases if your opponent has poor air support. Of course it would be a suicide tactic if they have air supremacy. (Yes, I admit, I've only seen this tactic successfully used against me.)

About the "support with inties" tactic, does this work well vs torp bombers? 4 T2 or 1 T3 bomber can one-hit a cruiser and drop bombs before reaching the cruiser. It hardly matters if the torp bombers die after that. More frigates, yeah.

Well, you pay attention to what he does. You see the torpedo bombers coming thanks to the radar range of the cruiser and you attack with your interceptors. Even if you have just as many interceptors as your opponent it's well worth attacking the torpedo bombers. Few people would risk accompanying the torpedo bombers with their interceptors because if it results in an air fight over the opponent's navy, then all interceptors die and the reclaim is for the opponent. So usually T2 torp bombers are sent in alone.

If not, you do just what I described. Attack despite the enemy intie blob and have an air fight above your navy. Because you take down some torpedo bombers with your interceptor, the cruiser lives and wrecks the enemy air force.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 27 Jun 2017, 09:26

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-27T09:12:08+02:00

Cyborg16 wrote:
keyser wrote:Actually i thought at first that this topic would be to complain that you can t really go full t2 air, skip naval and still be able to compete xD

You pretty-much can in some cases if your opponent has poor air support.

i really really doubt that you can go t2 air only on a navy map and win, not only because 80% of boats have aa, but because if an enemy sees what is a free pond win it would be 100% cruisers and maybe air of his own, then your strat filed and he already has the cruisers to shell your base

would like to see replays of this happening to prove ur point tho

Statistics: Posted by biass — 27 Jun 2017, 09:12

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-27T08:24:29+02:00

What about strat bombers vs cruisers? It seems a bit much that some strat bombers can one-hit kill some cruisers, when destroyers take 3 hits. A 20% HP boost to cruisers would be enough to prevent that.

keyser wrote:
Actually i thought at first that this topic would be to complain that you can t really go full t2 air, skip naval and still be able to compete xD

You pretty-much can in some cases if your opponent has poor air support. Of course it would be a suicide tactic if they have air supremacy. (Yes, I admit, I've only seen this tactic successfully used against me.)

About the "support with inties" tactic, does this work well vs torp bombers? 4 T2 or 1 T3 bomber can one-hit a cruiser and drop bombs before reaching the cruiser. It hardly matters if the torp bombers die after that. More frigates, yeah.

Statistics: Posted by Cyborg16 — 27 Jun 2017, 08:24

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-26T18:34:18+02:00

They have a siege element in them with the TML. Siege units have lower HP values. The Seraphim cruiser is the weakest of all. Thanks to flak it works against gunships.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Jun 2017, 18:34

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-26T04:36:04+02:00

Funny how UEF is the tanky faction but their cruiser has 2nd least HP and as shown by these tests, is very shit vs. gunships and torps. Is that so because UEF have bulwarks?

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 26 Jun 2017, 04:36

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-25T20:56:06+02:00

As turim said you don't build frigate and destro to kill air, but they have aa on board and when you get sone high number it kill pretty fast the gunship/torpedo.
Also as said kitting with cruiser is important especially vs gunship (t3 one even more)
Also and the most important building air requires tons of BP to be able to spend as much mass as your opponent is spending into navy (+ you need to build power to be able to spend your mass, so it requires more investment)

Actually i thought at first that this topic would be to complain that you can t really go full t2 air, skip naval and still be able to compete xD

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 25 Jun 2017, 20:56

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-25T20:36:35+02:00

No, cruisers were not trying to kite. That might make some difference. Scaling should favour Seraphim cruisers because of splash, but otherwise I don't think it would be a big deal.

vs gunshps that should make a very big difference (t2 and t3 gs)
did you try to dodge stratbombs? because it is possible and significantly lowers the Efficiency of stratbombers.
all results without Micro in both cases are essentially useless since the Units will be microed ingame.

I don't see how frigates help improve cost-effectiveness of cruisers if air is microed properly and assuming frigates are less cost effective. Excepting with torp bombers where torpedoes hit other targets by mistake.

you make a Major misassumption there (im only considering 1v1 games for this Point) frigates and (cybran) destroyers are not build to Counter air. they are build to raid/destroy the enemy base/Navy. all aa they have aditional to that is essentially for free (a medium cybran fleet can have the aa of a few cruisers just in frigs and destroyers). in 1v1 battles of only air vs only cruisers do not happen. air only stlyles loose usually vs a "some air"+Navy.

Statistics: Posted by Turinturambar — 25 Jun 2017, 20:36

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-25T20:13:44+02:00

interceptors are dirt cheap and torp bombers/gunships have a very hard time surviving them
i suggest you build intites

Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 25 Jun 2017, 20:13

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-25T19:32:34+02:00

Regarding points about supporting cruisers with other units:

I don't see how frigates help improve cost-effectiveness of cruisers if air is microed properly and assuming frigates are less cost effective. Excepting with torp bombers where torpedoes hit other targets by mistake.

Shields obviously help, but aren't always an option. Stealthing cruisers doesn't work well vs air, unless attacker is lazy and doesn't use leading scouts for targetting — which, granted, would give free vet (but HP boost isn't huge).

Statistics: Posted by Cyborg16 — 25 Jun 2017, 19:32

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-25T19:26:49+02:00

No, cruisers were not trying to kite. That might make some difference. Scaling should favour Seraphim cruisers because of splash, but otherwise I don't think it would be a big deal.

I did some more tests vs other air. Short version: T3 air usually beats cruisers. T2 torp bombers are much more cost effective than gunships. Seraphim cruiser is good vs T2 but bad vs T3 air [not counting T3 gunships].

Methodology: as before. No micro of cruiser or air. Always one cruiser.

Aeon strat bomber vs cruiser: beats all; remaining HP: Aeon: 40, UEF: 1800, Cybran: 1040, Seraphim: 2620.
UEF strat bomber vs cruiser: beats all but Aeon (cruiser wins with 248 HP); remaining HP: UEF: 2000, Cybran: 1930, Seraphim: 2820.

Aeon T3 torp bomber vs cruiser: beats Seraphim with 610 or 3150 HP remaining (2 tries); in all other cases both die.

Four T2 torp bombers (one from each race) vs cruiser: Aeon wins with 416 HP, Seraphim wins with 266 HP, UEF loses with 1 or 3 surviving bombers, Cybran loses with 2 surviving bombers.

Statistics: Posted by Cyborg16 — 25 Jun 2017, 19:26

Re: Navy vs Air

2017-06-25T19:06:51+02:00

did you kite with the cruisers?
dont Forget all non aeon will have frigs+ destros for additional aa around.(im mostly thinking about 1v1 situations atm and there you will likely have a lot of frigs+destros and only some cruisers)
also you can camp your Navy with a small airforce (small than half of your opponents (especially if you are sera) andyour Opponent will cant engage it cost efficiently eith his own air, while if he tries to use gs/torps those can get cleaned up by the small airforce pretty fast
most importend if you dont clean up the entire Navy (including frigs etc) your Opponent will still have controlll over the area and thereby ALL the reclaim. with that in mind he can afford to fight rather cost inefficiently.
so id say current cruiserbalance is ok only Thing im not sure about is aeon aa boats but thats a different story

Statistics: Posted by Turinturambar — 25 Jun 2017, 19:06