Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-07-16T19:45:17+02:00

Plasma Wolf I agree. I meant to say it more like cybran isn't weak (not that sera is weak); they are all pretty comparable. I don't think the firing cycle difference is that important between the two, since neither really has overkill. Especially if you have more than one t2 pd in range of incoming t1 units. Higher alpha damage is better in some situations.

On a somewhat related note to this thread, I don't think you should be able to build t2 with t1 engies, but I would like that if you select both t1 and t2 engies, that you are able to build t2 structures, and the t1 engies just automatically assist to build t2. It's just annoying to have to search for the higher tier engi, select only it, then go back and assist it with the others.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 16 Jul 2017, 19:45

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-07-16T10:21:27+02:00

You're forgetting the good firing cycle with the sera pd. A good sera PD will easily take it's mass cost in T1 units, thanks to the firing cycle. It kills a unit and can move on to the next one right away. This PD also barely misses.

Thanks to the higher damage value the sera pd can still do good damage to T2 units as well.

There's absolutely no reason to be not satisfied by the performance of any of the point defences.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 16 Jul 2017, 10:21

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-07-16T08:19:21+02:00

They are the worst, but not by that much. According to the unit database, sera pd costs 10% more mass, 20% more build time, with 5% more hp...to deal 24% more damage. So, maybe it's 10-15% better overall if you factor in the cost? Maybe slightly more if you think the build time isn't very important. Then if cybran is "garbage," sera is "almost" garbage too. (Uef would be the same dps, if you don't consider the aoe...but that complicates things so I'll just stop the comparison there.)

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 16 Jul 2017, 08:19

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-08T09:54:05+02:00

KeyBlue wrote:
Your comparison is also pretty bad cause you think of it as a vacuum. Units vs pd.
But this is not how a game goes. Both players spam units and use t1 pd in important locations.
Now imagine you're both posturing with units and ACU, little back and forth.
Suddenly a t2 pd pops up behind enemy lines.
You can't go forth anymore as you'll enter pd range, losing units every step of the way.
Killing the pd is impossible since there is an entire army between you and it.
Now you have to give up ground.
Opponent keeps slowly pushing up with pds. (After 5 he could even reclaim the first ones making it so the pd creep is almost for free)
To be able to stop this, you need to get t2 yourself. A huge investment.

This sounds like an unfair advantage for cybran doesn't it?

I hadn't thought about this. Good points and I am now convinced.

Statistics: Posted by RocketRooster — 08 May 2017, 09:54

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-06T16:04:21+02:00

I may have put in one Fobo too few for the Aeon and the Seraphim PD, but I don't think that'll change the general conclusion.

The Aeon lose hardest against the Fobo. The UEF vs Fobo is very close to a draw. Cybran and Seraphim win. Seraphim win the best because of their firing cycle.

The Cybran PD is to deal with land spam. T1 land spam, nothing else. It does that well enough for it's price. You should also take into account that there's a 4K shield you can spawn for 160 mass. Now this is a problem if you don't have 100 energy to spare, that's the only downside of them. But I think that if you're at early T2 with lots of T1 on the field, then you'd have that 100 energy to spare.

Put the Cybran T2 PD at T1 and you'll screw up the entire game for everything and everyone.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 06 May 2017, 16:04

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-06T00:07:56+02:00

Look closer. Cerberus doesn't kill reclaim. It doesn't overkill. It's 99.99% accurate. This already makes it better in a way than other T2 PD. Going back to what I said, the last thing cybran should do is turtle and PD creep. That's not their style, their style is hit-n-run.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 06 May 2017, 00:07

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T22:05:36+02:00

RocketRooster wrote:
I'm not convinced. You still need to pay for it, plus have the buildpower for it. It's not like you have an excess of either in the early game, neither will your expansion engies simply be able to spam them up and be immune to destruction. The Cerberus is easily overwhelmed by T1 spam no matter what tier it sits at.

In fact, I'd go as far as to argue that using them this way in the early game has increased risk.

The thing you are forgetting is that there is a reason why tech is locked by an upgrade.
Higher tech is better in almost all cases. This is why you need to turn your t1 spam into t2 asap when your t2 HQ is done.
By moving some unit to lower tier, balance gets completely messed up as you suddenly can spam a higher quality unit then your opponent for no extra cost.

Your comparison is also pretty bad cause you think of it as a vacuum. Units vs pd.
But this is not how a game goes. Both players spam units and use t1 pd in important locations.
Now imagine you're both posturing with units and ACU, little back and forth.
Suddenly a t2 pd pops up behind enemy lines.
You can't go forth anymore as you'll enter pd range, losing units every step of the way.
Killing the pd is impossible since there is an entire army between you and it.
Now you have to give up ground.
Opponent keeps slowly pushing up with pds. (After 5 he could even reclaim the first ones making it so the pd creep is almost for free)
To be able to stop this, you need to get t2 yourself. A huge investment.

This sounds like an unfair advantage for cybran doesn't it?

Statistics: Posted by KeyBlue — 05 May 2017, 22:05

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T15:18:32+02:00

Why not just make Cerberus a bit cheaper, since a higher critical mass is needed to achieve the same capabilities as a bank of triads

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 05 May 2017, 15:18

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T15:01:30+02:00

RocketRooster wrote:
By YOUR logic, being able to build experimentals with T1 will be game breaking because everyone will have spammed up a GC by the ten minute mark. Absurd.

Where did he say that?

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 05 May 2017, 15:01

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T08:30:20+02:00

Solution:

We take the cybran Cerberus model create a flat area on top of it reduce dps of the beam to 75 dps again as it was in gpg and add a t1 pd on top for a new masscost of 600. And we created the mini doomsday machine

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 05 May 2017, 08:30

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T06:08:58+02:00

I'll take on Cerberus turrets with T1 spam any day.

By YOUR logic, being able to build experimentals with T1 will be game breaking because everyone will have spammed up a GC by the ten minute mark. Absurd.

Statistics: Posted by RocketRooster — 05 May 2017, 06:08

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T05:17:22+02:00

RocketRooster wrote:
I'm not convinced. You still need to pay for it, plus have the buildpower for it. It's not like you have an excess of either in the early game, neither will your expansion engies simply be able to spam them up and be immune to destruction. The Cerberus is easily overwhelmed by T1 spam no matter what tier it sits at.

In fact, I'd go as far as to argue that using them this way in the early game has increased risk.

You realize that a T2 PD isn't even as expensive as 2 T1 PD, right? And with that 1 T2 PD you are now totally immune to any sort of raiding group because arty cant do anything about it.

With your logic, you might as well as let t1 engies build every unit. Get rid of tech levels for all structures. After all, you need buildpower for it and you need to pay for it. You don't have an excess of either in the early game so it's ok.

Also the cerberus is probably the 2nd best PD for dealing with t1 spam so I have no idea what you're talking about with it being "easily overwhelmed."

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 May 2017, 05:17

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T05:06:54+02:00

I'm not convinced. You still need to pay for it, plus have the buildpower for it. It's not like you have an excess of either in the early game, neither will your expansion engies simply be able to spam them up and be immune to destruction. The Cerberus is easily overwhelmed by T1 spam no matter what tier it sits at.

In fact, I'd go as far as to argue that using them this way in the early game has increased risk.

Statistics: Posted by RocketRooster — 05 May 2017, 05:06

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-05T00:36:58+02:00

RocketRooster wrote:
a crazy idea

Yes, crazy indeed. Too crazy to consider.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 05 May 2017, 00:36

Re: Cybran t2 pd

2017-05-04T21:21:10+02:00

RocketRooster wrote:
I've just had a crazy idea. Make the Cerberus a tier 1 structure, buildable by engies but not the barebones ACU, while keeping the cost and damage profile the same.

Think about it for a second. Making them accessible to T1 would increase their usefulness a lot, without them impacting the T2/T3 stage in terms of defensive capability apart from there maybe being a few more of them, or making Cybran PD creeps a thing.

Do you realize this would make Cybran inconceivably OP? T2 pd range on t1 phase has absolutely no counter. At all.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 04 May 2017, 21:21