Forged Alliance Forever Forged Alliance Forever Forums 2017-03-06T13:34:27+02:00 /feed.php?f=67&t=13477 2017-03-06T13:34:27+02:00 2017-03-06T13:34:27+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144689#p144689 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
sasin wrote:
And if you need me to, I can go back and find many replays in which it was used. ~1400 rating. I think that puts me well above the median. I wasn't going to make a post about it, but since there is already one here, I figured I'd at least chime in and push back against the argument that no one who isn't a super noob could use this.


Yea! I knew i'm not the only one!
That would be good if you dig up a replay. I tried to find one but i only have replays from one month before it was changed and the one where i actually use the shield is on a drawn out dualgap and isn't very good because i get the shield very late from team overflow after my base got nuked and i don't do much except killing one chicken and then get killed by mavor. :/
I already thought i'd have to produce a new one with equilibrium mod or something..

Statistics: Posted by realcat — 06 Mar 2017, 13:34


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2017-03-06T04:46:04+02:00 2017-03-06T04:46:04+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144682#p144682 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> Statistics: Posted by sasin — 06 Mar 2017, 04:46


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2017-03-06T04:40:36+02:00 2017-03-06T04:40:36+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144681#p144681 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> Statistics: Posted by sasin — 06 Mar 2017, 04:40


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2017-03-06T01:10:39+02:00 2017-03-06T01:10:39+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144676#p144676 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> Statistics: Posted by realcat — 06 Mar 2017, 01:10


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2017-03-05T21:23:14+02:00 2017-03-05T21:23:14+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144670#p144670 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
If you can provide a replay to show how this upgrade is viable, it would make this discussion far more productive.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 Mar 2017, 21:23


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2017-03-05T21:00:45+02:00 2017-03-05T21:00:45+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144665#p144665 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> and yes sub 1k is basically people stumbleing around maybe making some useful units (probably by accident). the last game i played vs people around/below 1k i won lategame air by making continentals so yeah...

Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 05 Mar 2017, 21:00


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2017-03-05T21:05:04+02:00 2017-03-05T20:53:29+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144664#p144664 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
Yes it is best on maps with chokepoints like gap. But in that rating-range the enemy rushed ml will attack you anyway if you put your com out there. Otherwise you need to improvise. You can attack yourself for example. Idk it's fluid gameplay. And no airplayer isn't needed. I build minimal firebase, rush t3 get pgen, get upgrade. If i need units i will delay accordingly, if they don't rush ml i don't need to hurry. Idk but overall i will get it when it fits. And the later in the game the cheaper is the upgrade. At some point you have a huge powerproduction and can make room for some e for example after first anti is finished. And even here the upgrade is still good. Also i have t3 by the time i will start that upgrade so i can defend myself with t3. And from a defensive position you can use fewer units than the attacker.
And you can sit your com somewhere and upgrade?? how do you thing the cybrans do it? How does anyone ever get an upgrade if there are sniperbots?? It's not like you need a com to keep a frontline running. You can sit t2engys in there and spam shields and whatever.
What do you want

I did play a lot of dualgap and countless gap games. In dualgap i carryd with that upgrade every other game. Normally enemy time doesn't except it and they throw their exps in. I go in my team pings and says "wtf you idiot??" i kill that exp and steal the mass. Now i spam up my own exp and together with com wreck their shit. I also did win games because that com was like a red flag to the enemy team. One game they tried to snipe it with strats like 4 times and wasted 3 nukes on it from wich 2 i could walk out of and one just hit me in the face but 70k hp so watever. If they would have used that on our bases we would have lost. If i am mid in a gap game and get that shield i normally win the game.
Sounds like boasting but who cares. Aeon double shield did win me countless games. Also i love it! Maybe i dig out replays or sth. -.-

And i also did play wonder and the desert river map and managed to get the upgrade and hold my line. Dunno what you want me to say just try yourself, oh wait you can't anymore.
I think it was perfectly fine.

And of course ravager gets counterd by arty but why do i need t2 com front when i can just have t2engys there and some in the back if they get shot down? Also arty gets countered again by arty and sniperbots. And it depends. ravager can be really good in chokepoints or when attacking high density buildingclusters. There is no 100% gameplay that always plays out the same. And i did see successful ravager-pushes in higherclass games that i watched.

And if nobody uses that upgrade because they all think it's bad then nobody can be angry if you keep it in since it's shit in the mainstreams opinion obviously and only stupid people like me use it just like the mavor and stealthmazer. And stealthmazer never get's used. Period. All the time... So if we are generous here in 10 games you play 5 are with stealthmazer? I did see one maybe in all those years but i'm not sure . It might be that i'm noob and play noobgames but i also watch streams of people better than me and even in those progames i never see stealthmazer! Literally one in a 100 games.

Statistics: Posted by realcat — 05 Mar 2017, 20:53


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2017-03-05T19:47:38+02:00 2017-03-05T19:47:38+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144659#p144659 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
I am a total noob :D

1100 is a crappy and very much below-average rating. You're not good.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 05 Mar 2017, 19:47


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2017-03-05T19:40:38+02:00 2017-03-05T19:40:38+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144657#p144657 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
realcat wrote:
So i'm 1100 and have around 750 games. I'm not a total noob. And as aeon i always had 2 tactics. Either i build ras-com and sit in base or i go fighting with com and get that upgrade. And yes you can sit around 3-6 min in your firebase upgrading. That's what you do anyway most of the time. If the enemy has his firebase and you have yours there is no walking around with com and getting kills.
And tech-com is halfhalf because you can't defend against a t3-uefcom or exps and need to get t3land anyway. So i rather go fighting-machine and get one t2 engy front.
Also i only do this as front and very scarsly as eco, because then i need my power for air. And you can produce harbys if you want since you only need one t2 or sth per factory. Also you can just balance the eco to the limit by pausing the upgrade and putting as much engys on it as possible.
It's not hard at all to get 1million power from somewhere. Normally you overflow that amount in one game anyway if you don't manage your eco really well. And the later the game the cheaper the upgrade gets. When you have 6k overflow you get it for free basically.
I rush this also as a monkeylordcounter and can get it faster than the first ml even if it is too rushed by enemy team.
So now one tactic remains and that is sit in base and get gc. before that you can drop 3 harbys but in a teamgame you will need to get gc.
I don't know why it is underused because it is the best aeon upgrade. 3gcs is overexagerated. But i had games with com and gc vs gc. Com shield nearly depleted and gc 80% health. 2gcs may also die but that's situational. A ML and Chicken is completely helpless vs shieldcom because of the range.
People should have used this more often but they never got how good it was.
Partly maybe because people don't know it and underestimate the shield all the time and just send their expensive stuff in. Idk but it certainly hardcounters some things.

And it's the price for having this much health in one shield. First 15k step cheap, second more expensive, third even more expensive. It's logical. Also as i said before it's only e. And e is less worth than mass because it can be spammed fast.

or if some people will complain because aeon will have 1 more upgrade for free...

Well the first upgrade is only good in the early game and the last in the late game. Without it aeon has no lategame options for com while the other races got double-nano, shieldcom with ravagers and gun, or tele/stealthmazer. Stealthmazer btw is also nearly never used.


If you won games with the 2nd aeon shield upgrade, it isn't because of that upgrade. The game was either already won and you were just deciding how you wanted to win it or you won it because your enemy didnt exploit the fact your ACU went combat path and now was afk for that entire upgrade soaking up energy rather than using that to produce something relevant. If most of your games are ending with these firebase wars, then I'm assuming it's more the latter.

Tech com is not a "half-half." Tech com is great when you have abundant mass because once you get 2-3 t2 pd up, the gun com is effectively useless in a team game scenario. I also have not seen anyone succeed with a ravager push since I was like 1100. It's a ridiculous mass cost that is countered by t3 mobile arty.

You make it sound as though it is easy to get one of the most expensive upgrades in the game and that your opponent will do nothing. You are putting the mass into a t3 pgen. You are putting that energy into something that will be useless for 7 minutes. Your opponent, now has the mass advantage because he does not need to make that much energy. He also can push all of his energy into useful units, for example, sniper bots that will kill your upgrading commander or even percivals because you can't OC while upgrading.

"It's not hard all all to get 1 million power from somewhere. Normally you overflow that amount in one game anyway"
Protip: If you are overflowing a million power, you aren't managing your eco well, that's legitimately the exact opposite of managing your economy well. :^)

You can't rush 2nd shield against a monkeylord. Monkeylord can be out by min 14-15 on a map (that isn't a rushed ml either). You aren't getting this shield on minute 14-15 without heavy team assistance that will cause them to lose in their area of combat. Even with that assistance, the monkeylord will just go where your com isn't because it's faster than your com and you can't transport yourself to it because your air player doesn't have the air to do anything since his energy went into your useless upgrade.

Let me tell you an actually good and feasible counter to monkeylord: range com + e storage + intel upgrade.

Stealthmazor is used all the time.

Your experience sounds 100% like terrible dual gap gameplay. Please try other team game maps to understand why this upgrade was never optimal play.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 Mar 2017, 19:40


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2017-03-05T19:37:29+02:00 2017-03-05T19:37:29+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144655#p144655 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 05 Mar 2017, 19:37


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2017-03-05T19:03:48+02:00 2017-03-05T19:03:48+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144651#p144651 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> And tech-com is halfhalf because you can't defend against a t3-uefcom or exps and need to get t3land anyway. So i rather go fighting-machine and get one t2 engy front.
Also i only do this as front and very scarsly as eco, because then i need my power for air. And you can produce harbys if you want since you only need one t2 or sth per factory. Also you can just balance the eco to the limit by pausing the upgrade and putting as much engys on it as possible.
It's not hard at all to get 1million power from somewhere. Normally you overflow that amount in one game anyway if you don't manage your eco really well. And the later the game the cheaper the upgrade gets. When you have 6k overflow you get it for free basically.
I rush this also as a monkeylordcounter and can get it faster than the first ml even if it is too rushed by enemy team.
So now one tactic remains and that is sit in base and get gc. before that you can drop 3 harbys but in a teamgame you will need to get gc.
I don't know why it is underused because it is the best aeon upgrade. 3gcs is overexagerated. But i had games with com and gc vs gc. Com shield nearly depleted and gc 80% health. 2gcs may also die but that's situational. A ML and Chicken is completely helpless vs shieldcom because of the range.
People should have used this more often but they never got how good it was.
Partly maybe because people don't know it and underestimate the shield all the time and just send their expensive stuff in. Idk but it certainly hardcounters some things.

And it's the price for having this much health in one shield. First 15k step cheap, second more expensive, third even more expensive. It's logical. Also as i said before it's only e. And e is less worth than mass because it can be spammed fast.


or if some people will complain because aeon will have 1 more upgrade for free...

Well the first upgrade is only good in the early game and the last in the late game. Without it aeon has no lategame options for com while the other races got double-nano, shieldcom with ravagers and gun, or tele/stealthmazer. Stealthmazer btw is also nearly never used.

Statistics: Posted by realcat — 05 Mar 2017, 19:03


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2017-03-05T17:01:50+02:00 2017-03-05T17:01:50+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144635#p144635 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
realcat wrote:
The powercost was compared to the cost of 3 nukes in an earlier post. But if you compare it with the mass included it's easy to spam up power with all that mass so it's not a good comparison.

As i said i did use it vs experimentals. And 29k isn't enough for that if it has recharge or not.
Aeon gets stripped of an endgame option here.

It's not "insane" cost since it's only energy. Cost was one t3 pgen and 6 min for me. That's easily managable. If you count it at 2 t3s the cost is (6000m + 100000e for pgens) + 4500m + 3min wait time. Not THAT much! Rather cheap actually. + You have the pgens wich you can now use for air or reclaim or whatever.

I still don't see it as ineffective. It's a slow long upgrade wich you can only do when you can secure your com.
As i said it is highly effective vs experimentals. Now that that option is gone you have to build 3 gcs instead of one gc + com.
You should make 3 stages. You get your benefit of more uses but the option stays. And if you don't use it who cares? Some people use it. Like i did a trillion times. And i had my best games overall with that shield. You can lure in lots of enemy fire and snipes since they never know how far it is depleted. You can survive a nuke with it. You can kill several MLs with it or a damaged gc or half health crab. Together with gc it's unbeatable. Com is bulletsponge for gc, when it's far depleted com hides behind gc. If they attack gc, com just happily OCs and has enough health in the end to survive 20 seconds of exp and still kill it.. though it's better when they attack the com first wich is often enough the thing they will do.
All just... gone.


In the 600 or so team games I played before this update was put into place, I saw a grand total of 1 game were that upgrade was used. And we are talking about aeon. This is the faction that sits in the eco slot nearly in every team game. Even moreso considering the fact that this was prior to the RAS nerf. I still only saw it once even with the fact aeon was often the faction in the slot that could most easily get this upgrade. Why is this?

For one, the upgrade is totally unnecessary for protection. You do not get it to prevent snipes from cybran telemazers or anything like that because the HP is simply unnecessary. The first shield upgrade could do the same thing and so you could use your energy for more productive things like actually upgrading nice t3 mexes or making RAS acus.

Second, the 2nd shield upgrade was totally unfeasible in any front slot or general combat situation. If you need to use your acu in combat, you cant just stop using it for 6 minutes while also stopping production of harbies (because of their e drain) in order to get your shield upgrade. The upgrade was simply suboptimal and any player above 1k in team game maps was aware of this reality.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 05 Mar 2017, 17:01


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2017-03-05T16:43:48+02:00 2017-03-05T16:43:48+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144634#p144634 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]> "Now that that option is gone you have to build 3 gcs instead of one gc + com."
well 3 gc would win over your com + gc combo...

at least you can't say that it was a nerf and that don't like aeon and that's why he did this change.

Just looking at the game, this "old" upgrade was never done by anyone, apart from some guys like you.

We can try to put it back in, but i don't know if it's feasible (without removing the 8k and 29k ones) or if some people will complain because aeon will have 1 more upgrade for free... stuff like that

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 05 Mar 2017, 16:43


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2017-03-05T16:18:24+02:00 2017-03-05T16:18:24+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144631#p144631 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
As i said i did use it vs experimentals. And 29k isn't enough for that if it has recharge or not.
Aeon gets stripped of an endgame option here.

It's not "insane" cost since it's only energy. Cost was one t3 pgen and 6 min for me. That's easily managable. If you count it at 2 t3s the cost is (6000m + 100000e for pgens) + 4500m + 3min wait time. Not THAT much! Rather cheap actually. + You have the pgens wich you can now use for air or reclaim or whatever.

I still don't see it as ineffective. It's a slow long upgrade wich you can only do when you can secure your com.
As i said it is highly effective vs experimentals. Now that that option is gone you have to build 3 gcs instead of one gc + com.
You should make 3 stages. You get your benefit of more uses but the option stays. And if you don't use it who cares? Some people use it. Like i did a trillion times. And i had my best games overall with that shield. You can lure in lots of enemy fire and snipes since they never know how far it is depleted. You can survive a nuke with it. You can kill several MLs with it or a damaged gc or half health crab. Together with gc it's unbeatable. Com is bulletsponge for gc, when it's far depleted com hides behind gc. If they attack gc, com just happily OCs and has enough health in the end to survive 20 seconds of exp and still kill it.. though it's better when they attack the com first wich is often enough the thing they will do.
All just... gone.

Statistics: Posted by realcat — 05 Mar 2017, 16:18


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2017-03-05T15:24:35+02:00 2017-03-05T15:24:35+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=13477&p=144628#p144628 <![CDATA[Re: ACU shield]]>
Also, where did you get the 'mass of 3 nukes' from :P

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 05 Mar 2017, 15:24


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