Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-31T14:38:29+02:00

They made hoverbombing harder, that's the good part of the patch. They made 1st bomber more expensive and blind, that's the bad part.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 31 Aug 2016, 14:38

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-31T10:01:40+02:00

No Lichking it was not sarcastic. I like the changes. I ve been killed by t1 bombers several times very very early. The top is the jokes was a bomber which was standing over my base minute 2-3 first bomber and it was simply standing and dropping 7 bombs without flying away. It killed all 4 pgens and 4 engis i had. My base was goen and ressources except my damaged factory. "Good" Game ..... not sure but a good game looks different. It is no fun if the game is decided in 50% by the first air battle.

Zock wanted to buff the bomber for normal usage and reduce the lame part of it. While removing radar and changing air physics he removed the lame part. Because air physics make hover bomb more difficult and second thing removing radar is increasing the difficulty for this bomber to attack in begin of game. In later game you can always get fast scout and do shift attacks over the map which works very very nice now and much better than before with new turn rate. Take 2 bombers and make "long line" attacks. Only attack targets you can kill with 1 pass with those 2 bombers and then make a long row of targets so they dont have to turn 180°. T1 bombers are used until lategame, so i think they will be better now for normal usage with scout and radar and the gameender position is gone. Those are bombers and not meant like gunships for attacking a single target 10 times until aa guns will appear. In my opinion t1 mobile aa guns buff was needed.

I like all the other changes as well. It brings fresh wind in this game and is not destructing it. 3 out of 4 factions can still do rambo acus and it costs simply 2k mass more but is 200% stronger. Cybran was anyways never able to do rambo acu. They have enough of sneaky other stuff. Maybe it will reduce even the number of 6-8 min suicides of t2 acus which think they are god and run into fire.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 31 Aug 2016, 10:01

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-31T09:36:14+02:00

Angus000, I am not assuming a bomber gets 4 passes, I am saying that in terms of the 15 second longer build time and 5 second shorter turn time it takes 4 passes for them to do the same amount of damange (that equates them for damage done). The point is DPS is not the correct measure to look at.
Also having air control is expensive and difficult to get if you also do t1 bombers when facing equally skilled players. Engies can make AA and factories mobile AA so even air control is not sufficient to ensure you get enough passes. Bombers are not that strong so having air control implies a later stage in the game when there are already quite a few engies around that will make the AA.

Statistics: Posted by Evildrew — 31 Aug 2016, 09:36

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-31T02:59:42+02:00

Evildrew wrote:
Ok guys, will do some gaming tonight for testing T1 bombers but I also took the time at work to analyse a bit more this T1 Bomber thing:

So what I think has happened is the following:

Balance people thought that with the 8 sec instead of 13 sec turn rate for 2nd pass that dps increased from roughly 24DPS to 37DPS and therefore increased both the time and mass to build a T1 Bomber.

Now what is not considered is the following. T1 bomber now takes 15 secs longer to build and in exchange has 5 sec shorter turn and drop rate, that means it takes until the 4th pass for the total damage dealt to be equal looking only at time. So how many times have we seen a t1 bomber on a team game get 4 passes? I dont remember either...

The problem here is that DPS is not the full story, DPS does not consider the build time. It is like looking at the margins a business is generating without looking at how long it takes to generate them to evaluate the investment.

Let me show with an example using nodes to illustrate the probabilities of getting 4 passes with some reasonable figures to illustrate.
(the first line marks the probability that a t1 bomber strikes a target before being shot down, and so on until 4th pass)

Start
1st Pass
1. Success (90%) Fail (10%)
2nd Pass
2. Success (30%) Fail (70%)
3rd Pass
3. Success (10%) Fail (90%)
4th Pass
4. Success (1%) Fail (99%)

So using this logic the probability of getting 4 passes and equaling the damage dealt between the previous bomber and the new one (diesregarding the additional mass cost but focusing mainly on time) is 0,9*0,3*0,1*0,01=0,027%
Getting 3 passes has a probability of 2,7%

So what is clear is that higher DPS does not justify the higher cost.

You are assuming the bomber will attack the same target 4 times in a row. In reality, bombers are used the most against engies, and against them, they don't need to do a full turn. If you try to attack 4 different engies, you will find it extremely effective with the new turn ratio.

Also, bombers indeed die quite fast againts inties, but that's only when you don't have air control, when you do, they are pretty strong.

The last time I saw a bomber do 4 passes in a team game? My bombers do it quite often, specially when the enemy neglects to make inties and then blames the air player who didn't react on time. Again, you just need to attack 4 different targets or have air control.

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 31 Aug 2016, 02:59

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-31T00:23:43+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Please .... people discussing to much. In gpg it was not possible to get a bomber early because it costed much more e. It helped less experienced players not to be destroyed by a single early bomber and therefor was a protecting mechanism for beginners. "Nobody" complained about it when it was changed that suddenly with faf bombers became 3-5min gameenders. The time is proceeding and i accepted that bombers can be built earlier. Balance will go on in future and more changes will appear. or be reverted. Once the balance changes will stop, no matter for good or bad, the game will die.

Thanks for this nice patch and the new game experience.

"nice" is a curious expression you are using. Sarcastic, Iszh?

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 31 Aug 2016, 00:23

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T22:16:06+02:00

Ok guys, will do some gaming tonight for testing T1 bombers but I also took the time at work to analyse a bit more this T1 Bomber thing:

So what I think has happened is the following:

Balance people thought that with the 8 sec instead of 13 sec turn rate for 2nd pass that dps increased from roughly 24DPS to 37DPS and therefore increased both the time and mass to build a T1 Bomber.

Now what is not considered is the following. T1 bomber now takes 15 secs longer to build and in exchange has 5 sec shorter turn and drop rate, that means it takes until the 4th pass for the total damage dealt to be equal looking only at time. So how many times have we seen a t1 bomber on a team game get 4 passes? I dont remember either...

The problem here is that DPS is not the full story, DPS does not consider the build time. It is like looking at the margins a business is generating without looking at how long it takes to generate them to evaluate the investment.

Let me show with an example using nodes to illustrate the probabilities of getting 4 passes with some reasonable figures to illustrate.
(the first line marks the probability that a t1 bomber strikes a target before being shot down, and so on until 4th pass)

Start
1st Pass
1. Success (90%) Fail (10%)
2nd Pass
2. Success (30%) Fail (70%)
3rd Pass
3. Success (10%) Fail (90%)
4th Pass
4. Success (1%) Fail (99%)

So using this logic the probability of getting 4 passes and equaling the damage dealt between the previous bomber and the new one (diesregarding the additional mass cost but focusing mainly on time) is 0,9*0,3*0,1*0,01=0,027%
Getting 3 passes has a probability of 2,7%

So what is clear is that higher DPS does not justify the higher cost.

Statistics: Posted by Evildrew — 30 Aug 2016, 22:16

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T20:06:18+02:00

dev_nulled wrote:
Hey Brutus - I was on the other side of that game (heelix). The early t1 bombers were worthless. I won't bother with them again on a map the size of 12 the pass. Not sure if that was the intent of this update, but that is the praxis of it.

Yep I know you were. Building mass storage's instead of pgens like me huh? Yeah this setup goes against larger maps absolutely.

Someone mentioned that T2 fac cost has been increased as well?? I actually should check the changelog, didn't knew changes are as wide. Only heard rants about T1 bombers

Statistics: Posted by Brutus — 30 Aug 2016, 20:06

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T18:00:32+02:00

I quite like the t1 bomber now as it can actually - in a group of 3 or 4 - thwart some mindless t1 spam, which should become fairly common now that the t2 hq costs so much and takes forever to upgrade.

Props to t1 bomber so far, although my opinion could change.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 30 Aug 2016, 18:00

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T18:13:13+02:00

Hey Brutus - I was on the other side of that game (heelix). The early t1 bombers were worthless. I won't bother with them again on a map the size of 12 the pass. Not sure if that was the intent of this update, but that is the praxis of it.

Statistics: Posted by dev_nulled — 30 Aug 2016, 17:49

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T10:17:19+02:00

Please .... people discussing to much. In gpg it was not possible to get a bomber early because it costed much more e. It helped less experienced players not to be destroyed by a single early bomber and therefor was a protecting mechanism for beginners. "Nobody" complained about it when it was changed that suddenly with faf bombers became 3-5min gameenders. The time is proceeding and i accepted that bombers can be built earlier. Balance will go on in future and more changes will appear. or be reverted. Once the balance changes will stop, no matter for good or bad, the game will die.

Thanks for this nice patch and the new game experience.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 30 Aug 2016, 10:17

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T10:17:11+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
Evildrew wrote:Ok Icedreamer I will give it a try. BUT the fact of the matter is that early bomber is only a thing on 1v1 on small maps, any skilled player will look at score and see that their opponent is going airfactory so even on small maps you can prepare.

actually this is the n1 reason we (1300+) like playing with score off : D

Maybe it's also the reason why scorre is off by default...
#justsaying

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 30 Aug 2016, 10:17

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T10:05:04+02:00

Evildrew wrote:
Ok Icedreamer I will give it a try. BUT the fact of the matter is that early bomber is only a thing on 1v1 on small maps, any skilled player will look at score and see that their opponent is going airfactory so even on small maps you can prepare.

actually this is the n1 reason we (1300+) like playing with score off : D

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 30 Aug 2016, 10:05

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T09:59:46+02:00

If it takes 50-60% more time to build a bomber than I just wont build them as they usually anyway survive for a single pass, rarely two passes and with often questionable results. But the previous setting at least was fun as you could build them faster and not worry about if they get shot or miss the target. If they get shot now, and/or miss the target, then you've wasted a ton of time and mass that would anyway at best give minimal results.

Taken that into account with any larger maps that I usually play, it just feels like it became obsolete. No matter what DPS it has due to a sharper turn it's going to get shot down and rain all that bomber wreck mass down to the happy plebs being bombed. It only made sense when you're able to build them fast, and it overall gave T1 tech more life. This is one of rare updates in the past years that actually reduced the tech life time.

If a bomber takes 50-60% more build time and mass to build now, why not just upgrade to t2 faster? Certainly there's that much more incentive to just skip over T1 altogether after you've built just a few intcs and possibly some AA that would bring down any T1 bomber after at best it releases a single bomb.

Also, to me, manual control of bombers adds to a difference between inexperienced and experienced players, which I personally liked. FAF was a hybrid in that sense and that was a good thing, microing, don't bloody take that out. FAF is a game of micromanagement, not? It's its perk, a good side and what separates it from other shit plebs RTSs.

All in all, surprise bombing raids are a thing of the past on anything that isn't a 1v1 map.

Having said that, maybe we'll get used to it and you guys made a valid call there. Lets give it a few more days before we start a revolution. I've had a single large game with the update and I've only seen t1 bombers in the final stages of it, so was a bit ridiculous, altho I believe someone was just testing them out. And they weren't pleased in their impression after the game. But hey maybe this is a great change!

Appreciate seeing the game worked on guys in any case!

Yours truly,

Muhammad the Gay

Statistics: Posted by Brutus — 30 Aug 2016, 09:59

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T09:31:05+02:00

Evildrew wrote:
any skilled player will look at score and see that that its disabled by default and he is wasting his time.

fixed it for you

Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 30 Aug 2016, 09:31

Re: Reverse T1 Bomber nerf Immediaty! And some game analysis

2016-08-30T09:28:17+02:00

any skilled player does not have score enabled haha sorry

Statistics: Posted by biass — 30 Aug 2016, 09:28