Forged Alliance Forever

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T19:48:48+02:00

and there is a replay of team game where i go 1st bomber.
not sure if worth it or not.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 19 Aug 2016, 19:48

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T19:37:05+02:00

new aa is stronger than previous one because :
- it survive 1 bomber path, allowing it to shoot at bomber after first drop, and still do 100% damage, not losing 50% of the dps like previously (losing 1 aa = losing 50% dps)

it's like if you were making a super-mantis that had double stat of the 2 mantis. the super-mantis would win vs the 2 mantis. that's (part of) why higher tier unit have (often) less dps/hp per mass.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 19 Aug 2016, 19:37

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T16:18:14+02:00

But you only need to kill the scout then enemy is blind. Mostly i suffer from t1 bombers but i still like this change no idea why i played a few 1v1 games with alpha to test the bomber and more and in some games i ve been bombed early it was not so harmful like the former hover bombers which could kill you like a 4min gameender. Maybe i like it because finally i can use them as well good with shift attack. I was never able to hover a bomber because i didnt try it and normal usage was always weak. They feel great now.

@Morax i do not really understand how the new aa guns can be stronger. You produce same dps and hp in same time as before. It didnt change at all. If before somebody was able to spam t1 mobile aa guns to stop a t2 gunship snipe then it will be possible in beta as well and otherwise round. The difference is only that you will not be able to kill the t1 mobile aa so fast like before. So enemy gets his dps a bit more slow but can keep it a bit longer if you attack the aa guns. Not much difference i can see.

But while reading your post i got the impression you should be a big friend for my idea in the jester stinger thread

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 19 Aug 2016, 16:18

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T16:03:46+02:00

PhilipJFry wrote:
@JaggedAppliance did you have a harder time microing the beta bomber or the regular bomber (for hoverbombing) or was there no difference for you at all?

Hover bombing was more difficult with beta bombers for me but I obviously have much less practice with them. Normal hoverbombing is extremely easy, with beta it's more difficult but still very easy. Versus engies the beta bomber is strong because you can adjust its direction much faster and it adjusts better when it gets attack orders because of the turnspeed as well as dropping some bombs that are impossible to dodge.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 19 Aug 2016, 16:03

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T15:50:49+02:00

Easy fix, host lots of beta games! It's the only thing I'm playing at the moment. And post replays when something happens that you don't think would happen with the main patch. People x up after not that long for a beta 1v1 in my experience, and I play in Australian prime (i.e. when the server is dead).

Statistics: Posted by Sir Prize — 19 Aug 2016, 15:50

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T15:42:57+02:00

Honestly Zock, I do understand and it's good work on your end, but I'm just very worried people are not testing enough and seeing situations full-out. I guess that's FAF for ya, though.

I did a t2 gunship rush and some t1 maa was enough to take them out rather flack, which made me upset. I'm a BIG gunship fan so this becoming a less viable strat makes it less intriguing to me.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 19 Aug 2016, 15:42

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T12:52:20+02:00

PhilipJFry wrote:
snuffles wrote:I see that bomber has radar still

The last replay is not a beta game to show the difference between the beta patch and the current patch.

@JaggedAppliance did you have a harder time microing the beta bomber or the regular bomber (for hoverbombing) or was there no difference for you at all?

I ran the second replay, not the third

Statistics: Posted by snuffles — 19 Aug 2016, 12:52

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T10:47:31+02:00

@Morax, and everyone else thinking this

The (first bombers) are not removed, and it was specifically intended to weaken them, but not remove them as more possible options and strategies are always a good thing.

The new behaviour for the bomber doesn't have the goal to weaken first bomber either, the changes are made to make unmicroed bombers behave better and more convinient, to reduce the gap in usefulness between microed and unmicroed bombers, and to act as counterweight to the actual first bomber nerfs to prevent "normal" bombers becoming too weak.

Judging if the goal of weakening first bombers is reached based on the behaviour of the bomber can't work. The first bomber is weakned by the cost and build time increase, the removal of radar, and the changes to maa. When the microed bomber does about as much damage as hoverbomber did before, it is still weaker when you take this other nerfs into account.

@Nexus_of_Reality, and others

Izsh is correct, i have seen many posts using the "massive buffs" to the maa as arguments, but i wonder if you guys are aware that while dps is doubled, cost and buildtime is doubled too? The unit is buffed indeed, but it is far from massive, and most advantages from the changes are very indirect and situational.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 19 Aug 2016, 10:47

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T10:11:11+02:00

Fafreplayparser:
First replay without beta 101 APM
the other replays with beta 70 APM

and watching it it seems that it is even more easy because turning you can do with a few clicks how he described and hover bomber you needed to click a lot. But of course lets wait what he will tell himself.

First game:
xxx5.JPG

Second game:
xxx2.JPG

Third game:
xxx4.JPG

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 19 Aug 2016, 10:11

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T09:31:49+02:00

snuffles wrote:
I see that bomber has radar still

The last replay is not a beta game to show the difference between the beta patch and the current patch.

@JaggedAppliance did you have a harder time microing the beta bomber or the regular bomber (for hoverbombing) or was there no difference for you at all?

Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 19 Aug 2016, 09:31

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T08:00:05+02:00

I see that bomber has radar still

Statistics: Posted by snuffles — 19 Aug 2016, 08:00

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T06:29:13+02:00

But it costs double and has double builttime nexus. They are not stronger just merged 2 units into 1.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 19 Aug 2016, 06:29

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-18T22:31:13+02:00

yea t1 bombers are stronger in beta it seems xD but t1 maa is a little overpowered in beta as well.. Imo the maa needs to be half as strong as it is in beta, and bombers dont need to be messed with too much. It's gotten to the point where 1 mobile aa can kill a bomber pretty easily/quickly.

Statistics: Posted by Nexus_of_Reality — 18 Aug 2016, 22:31

Re: BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-18T19:03:21+02:00

I haven't watched yet but this result is miserable. The whole point was to prevent first-bomber cheese, no?

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 18 Aug 2016, 19:03

BETA: T1 bomber sandboxes

2016-08-19T15:05:48+02:00

Showcasing some bomber micro in these replays. You can see how hoverbombing is not really gone. Because of the fast turn rate you can click once and have the bomber turn in a very tight arc. There are also many weird bomb drops and sometimes the bomber is not vertical but kind of turned over or pitched up. All of this behaviour is present with the normal t1 bombers but I'm not sure if it is so common as it is with these bombers, I think it isn't.

Many bomb drops are very fast which is important vs engies, making some drops undodgeable. Again, normal bombers can drop super fast bombs also but it seems far more common for these drops to occur with the new bomber.

In the second replay you can see microed vs non microed bomber. They kill the base at a similar time because of some failed micro by me but the microed bomber does kill the pgens fast which is more important and the bomber is already thought to perhaps need a nerf to how quickly it turns for another pass, you can see just how fast it turns and drops.

Third replay is the normal bombers microed vs unmicroed. There is behaviour here which isn't possible with new bombers like hovering backwards and sideways. It looks like there are far less fast drops here though, maybe someone can confirm or refute this.

Please share your thoughts about these replays and the bombers, new and old.

Forgive my micro also

Edit: the replays may be listed in the wrong order but you can tell if the bomber has no radar it's a beta bomber, otherwise it's the normal one.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 18 Aug 2016, 14:53