Forged Alliance Forever

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-18T10:33:24+02:00

That i was jestersniped was just a reminder. I always wanted to find out why the hell jesters are more or less good for snipes and t2 gunships dont really work out so easy despite nearly no additional cost of t2 air factory. It costs like 2-3 gunships. If you expect that t2 gunships are better then it should be no problem, but it is. The explanation i found is 30%more dps in the same built time. I beleave thats the real reason and it would be a nice buff for t2 gunships as i described and bring especially for sera and uef better chance to snipe somebody with gunships. But for cybran also should be better then to use t2 gunships finally as a fast defense weapon or alternative for corsair snipes. So i still propose changes like in my picture before. Because:

Reduced built time is lowering the time until enemy can cout it
Reduced built time is increased the speed you can rise your dps
And for cybran it will cost the same and have same built time as jesters but if you have a t2 factory you have the slight hp advantage of t2 gunships (15%/time)

Increased e cost will be a condition to make it not to easy same as jester

Why i should be embarrassed? To calculate those number you need 5 min. I would like to see zock to add it for next testing beta/alpha, because otherwise i cant see any realistic possibility of a change here.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 18 Aug 2016, 10:33

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-18T10:06:37+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Hey i ve been researching this topic a bit closer since i ve been jester sniped a few times now due to no scouting.

You did that that a bit hard. Didn't you.

Iszh embarrassed much?

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 18 Aug 2016, 10:06

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T22:27:24+02:00

I can pm you tomorrow evening, it will be some kind of 1v1 training for me and wen can play beta and mod together

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 17 Aug 2016, 22:27

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T22:09:58+02:00

Welcome to my life where I'm desperately trying to get people to test beta patch...

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 17 Aug 2016, 22:09

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T19:33:42+02:00

To mod this i need 3 min ... nobody will test it. I spent the 3 minutes to do it wasted lifetime, unfortunately mod upload does not work

This mod contains only eco changes as mentioned above in picture to all factions t2 gunships.

Iszh Balance.zip

Result of this mod should be that you can finally powerstall while spamming t2 gunships but you can produce them in shorter time. I hope i can find some friends for this idea. It would as well be a buff for the cybran renegade compared to the jester.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 17 Aug 2016, 19:33

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T18:48:24+02:00

Nice, now we need to get someone to make a mod and test it.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 17 Aug 2016, 18:48

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T18:37:28+02:00

SirTobi60 wrote:
Nepty wrote:
Kalvirox wrote:I like Stingers because of the slight AOE on them. Nice for killing lots of engies fast, particularly when they are trying to rush up anti-air

Stingers have slight AOE? This is new to me. Good to know.

he's talking about renegades obviously...

Oh yeah I am a retard

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 17 Aug 2016, 18:37

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T17:44:30+02:00

I would not nerf t1 gunship since you cant see jester snipes every game as i told before and it is scoutable. Here my proposal:

Newgunship.JPG

Any questions why?

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 17 Aug 2016, 17:44

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T17:15:59+02:00

What's your proposed change? I always see people write vague to super-detailed analyses like this but they never propose a solution. I'm in agreement that spamming jesters early will likely cause a stall more than at the t2 air stage, and therefore don't believe a change is a good idea.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 17 Aug 2016, 17:15

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T10:56:21+02:00

Does it make a difference to compare renegade or stinger to t1 gunship? I compare mostly uef units they i know them best without watching unit database. They are the same except that renegade can turn gun only turret pitch: 0° ±45° (360°/s), turret yaw: 0° ±10° (360°/s). Same cost same dps. I just noticed in units database is written stinger have 66 dps instead of 60 but in game is written 60 dps. They cost the same and built time is the same so you can compare whatever you want to t1 gunship -> Stinger, Renegade, Specter or Vulthoo. All of them produce only 75% of dps in the same time like t1 jester. With land and ships thats normal that lower tech level units produce much more dps in short time. But with t1 gunship it feels different because it feels exactly the same strong vs t1 aa mobile and stationary and resistant against inties like a t2 gunship.

Jester gets 2,63 hp/mass
t2 gunships 3,47 hp/mass

The dps is the same for mass and the hp is a bit more. I think the advantage of producing fast dps is still more significant. I would like to reduce hp of my t2 gunships a bit for getting them faster
They anyways die within seconds once t2 aa appears.

If you take 3,47 * 0,75 = 2,6 or otherwise round 2,63 * 1,3 = 3,42. That means 0,75% hp of a t2 gunship for producing dps wise faster exactly the same ammount. I would like to reduce t2 gunhips hp to 50% and decrease built time by 50% would be nice hahaha but thats what a jester is and not even at t2 it is at t1 level. That makes it double better. Who needs hp in t2 gunships? Time is a much more important ressource for such a weapon in my opinion.

Just for better understanding without text:
DPS T2 GunJester.JPG

All other stats are the same like air physics and so on. I think those units are very comparable. T1 gunship is a modified t2 gunship. Just watch t1 bomber it is shot by a few shots. T1 bomber has 200 hp and the gunships has nearly 3 times more hp. If you compare to t3 level the bomber has arround 4k hp and the gunships arround 6k. That 1,5 times the hp but not 3 times more.

p.s. 22 hp/s (with 40 bp) is exactly the same for t1 and t2 gunships. If you take cybran t2 gunship you get even a bit less hp/time compared to the t1 gunship lol

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 17 Aug 2016, 10:56

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T10:41:27+02:00

Yeah kalvi was miss-leaded because would have been more logic to compare t1 and t2 cybran gunship, but you have to take in count that iszh will bring everything up to uef

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 17 Aug 2016, 10:41

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T10:07:33+02:00

Nepty wrote:
Kalvirox wrote:I like Stingers because of the slight AOE on them. Nice for killing lots of engies fast, particularly when they are trying to rush up anti-air

Stingers have slight AOE? This is new to me. Good to know.

he's talking about renegades obviously...

Statistics: Posted by CookieNoob — 17 Aug 2016, 10:07

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-16T21:04:49+02:00

Kalvirox wrote:
I like Stingers because of the slight AOE on them. Nice for killing lots of engies fast, particularly when they are trying to rush up anti-air

Stingers have slight AOE? This is new to me. Good to know.

Statistics: Posted by Nepty — 16 Aug 2016, 21:04

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-17T18:38:27+02:00

EDIT: I'm being stupid... Ignore this

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 16 Aug 2016, 20:51

Re: From Jesters & Stingers

2016-08-16T17:27:34+02:00

Here's the last time I was using Jesters. Was purely because I was being pushed back. Otherwise I would've built bombers to deal with his land army or structures.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 16 Aug 2016, 17:27