Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-09T01:06:33+02:00

Flak may be too good. But i don't think they are better than shields. If you try to torp through shields and cruisers, and you don't have the critical mass (invariably i very rarely see people get it right) then you've just wasted all your torps and killed nothing. Against cybran the critical mass is less defined, you will always do damage and can easily 1 pass cruisers with a shift g.

I think the problem lies with having multipurpose naval and aa units and nobody being sure how to balance them. But they absolutely need aa on their frigates and destros.

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 09 Aug 2016, 01:06

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-09T00:48:37+02:00

it was more about viba answer than yours really.

still the point stand that flak being to good shouldn't be an excuse for cybran frig/destro aa being good

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 09 Aug 2016, 00:48

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-09T00:37:33+02:00

keyser wrote:
but no point discuting with people that try misinterpret what i mean... if you wanna play the "game" of finding the little issue in other person argumentation

keyser wrote:
since we are testing cybran aa, and not cybran torpedo bomber, as swol clearly don't want to recognize (wtf?)

Woah, hold on brah. Clearly i never suggested flak is the counter to t3 torp bombers, or that i wouldn't have cruisers in a naval composition if i wanted aa (wtf)? I was merely demonstrating how cybran have no options for defending from heavy air in a way other factions can. And what do t3 torp bombers even have to do with anything? Cybran navy gets boned by t2 air, t3 is irrelevant (wtf?)

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 09 Aug 2016, 00:37

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-09T00:06:37+02:00

not what i said, but somehow you see mainly aeon cruiser in game. There is also advantage of area denie, speed....

but no point discuting with people that try misinterpret what i mean (i can also do rolling eye). As i said if you wanna play the "game" of finding the little issue in other person argumentation, while ignoring the whole point of what have discuss, you can use T3 torp bomber (since we are testing cybran aa, and not cybran torpedo bomber, as swol clearly don't want to recognize (wtf?)) to avoid his flak spam. But this "game" is indeed pointless.

edit : not sure why i answer to this type of troll. :/

2nd edit : and i guess the best argument to say here, is that isn't an issue about cybran aa, but more an issue about hover flak being possibly too good with navy. => but this issue can be address to zock, to make him remove the speed buff on flak.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 09 Aug 2016, 00:06

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T23:51:53+02:00

So my understanding of the last few posts is that if I wanted to compare T1 navy aa, I'd have to do so with aeon frigates and cybran frigates. I wouldn't be allowed to build shards or flak because cybran doesn't have it?
It is only logical as aeon to use flak as aa in navy compositions... But then ofcourse cybran doesn't have flak and thus it should be ignored

Statistics: Posted by Viba — 08 Aug 2016, 23:51

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T21:08:11+02:00

....last time i checked cybran don't have t3 torp bombers. I'm suggesting you can air cybran out of the water in a way they can't do to other factions even before nerf. And that other factions have much more considerations and even effective options available to them than cybrans option of just mindlessly spamming frigs and destros which are about to be nerfed. And why not use the most OP thing in a certain situation? i thought that was one of the key aspects of the game? Just because cybran navy has zero thought process to countering air threat? And a t2 land HQ and several flak are the same cost as a cruiser, pretty much better at killing everything than single t3 air units, plus they have good hp/mass and a small hitbox which can be useful in naval engagements itself for wasting opponent dps, building them for navy seems like a no brainier to me if available.

Anyway, i guess you feel like you are talking to a brick wall. I've vented. Thanks for entertaining my vent

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 08 Aug 2016, 21:08

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T20:17:34+02:00

yeah sure then why not use T3 torp bomber ? will see if your flak are doing so well.
at this little trick of using the most op unit for a certain situation, it's really easy to f*** up a test. Even more when it is a sandbox one. (putting aside that you need T2 land, your flak are slower, etc.......)

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 08 Aug 2016, 20:17

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T19:43:40+02:00

keyser wrote:
if you wanted to do at least equal test, you should have put aeon destro in place of hover flak

Wut? So to have an equal test of why cybran aa is op you need to remove all the aa from the other faction?

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 08 Aug 2016, 19:43

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T19:26:07+02:00

pls be aware that the buff of hover flak was never an idea of mine, and i don't support it at all.

if you wanted to do at least equal test, you should have put aeon destro in place of hover flak. maybe even here aeon navy would have kill even lower number of torps.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 08 Aug 2016, 19:26

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T19:03:51+02:00

I don't believe i have the time, desire or skill to play enough 1v1 games (i'm not a 1v1 player) to make a meaningful demonstration. But here is a beta sandbox of a kackbran navy getting shredded by 30 torps and a gayeon navy shredding 60 torps. Granted there are far more variables than my sandbox shows but perhaps it shows the gist of where i'm coming from.
5024614-Mel_Gibson.fafreplay

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 08 Aug 2016, 19:03

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T17:54:40+02:00

I'm not sure this is actually a thing, we must have different definitions of effective

when 4 cybran destro kill a strat in 1 path, i guess you can say they are effective for a unit that is design to bombard base/naval army from distance. (3 destro kill the strat in 2 path, that is not even enough to kill a destro)

moreover about torpedo bomber and frigate, even 10 torpedo bomber doesn't kill 10 frigate from a fleet of 20 frigates. Though frigate are not suppose to be an aa boat, and torpedo bomber are design to win against naval unit. (the cost in mass of a frigate = cost in mass of torpedo bomber. But the price in e is way higher for torpedo bomber)

If you are not convinced by the power of actual aa, i advice you (like you said) to do 5-6 1v1 game against opponent of your level, where you try to rush T2 air pretty fast against cybran. You may succeed 1 or twice, but i can guaranty you that i'll be hard. (exemple of map : roanoke and seraphim glacier for 20x20 map, and white fire for 10x10 map)
PS : i prefer to test on roanoke/white fire for exemple since T1 naval stage is important for killing T1 mexx. But Seraphim glacier is a good way to show how it is easy to get big fleet of frigate (tons of mass, and low BT of frigate)

afterward you may want to test the "new" aa in 1v1 and draw conclusion from this. (if nerf is too strong or not)
Even if your point of view is important, it would have a lot more impact on us if you had been playing the beta a bit.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 08 Aug 2016, 17:54

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T16:58:05+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
3 Torps is a very bad number for killing frigates. 4 Torps are needed to kill a frigate in a single pass.

1. I was being a bit facetious 2. Math, do you even?

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 08 Aug 2016, 16:58

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T16:51:57+02:00

3 Torps is a very bad number for killing frigates. 4 Torps are needed to kill a frigate in a single pass.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 08 Aug 2016, 16:51

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T15:19:09+02:00

keyser wrote:
Then about destro, as zlo said, they were increadibly effective against strat. So yes strat bomber aren't the most effective way to deal with navy, but you can t accept destro to be that much effective against strat bomber...

I'm not sure this is actually a thing, we must have different definitions of effective, but i can accept this when otherwise i can shift-g their cruisers and remove them all in 1 pass without barely a casualty.

You're all better players than i, so while i understand all your points and the most logical position is that i am wrong, i am going to go ahead and consign myself the forum looney bin anyway and say these changes still don't sit well with me. Seems to me, Cybran have an advantage at the t1 stage, games can be won at the t1 stage, and ofc Cybran op so nerf cybran t1 advantage and not care about nerfing even harder their t2, t3 disadvantage.

Talking about critical mass, the critical mass of torps needed to do damage against cybran navy is far lower than any other faction assuming one has scouted/ is aware of and has prepared for torps. A few cybran frigs aa is OP relative to other factions frigs for sure, but a few frigs will still die to a few torps. Which again leads me to believe the real problem people have with cybran aa is that you can't kill 20 opponent frigs with 3 torps like you can vs other factions, or that you can spam frigs and destros and not have to factor whether the opponent is building torps or not, because even if they are, your unit composition doesn't need to change.

I guess i won't be convinced otherwise, and i just have reassess when i try to go 100% t2 air and flak against cybran navy

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 08 Aug 2016, 15:19

Re: Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

2016-08-08T13:07:17+02:00

So about the aa change on frigate and destro, i was the one that ask for this change. I would have prefer to have them missing more than reducing damage (to not nerf them against gunship)
Why this change ? I've to explain how naval map are played in 1v1.
Usually on 1v1 naval map (and sone teamgame map that are not seton) frigate can kill t1 mexx. So it is very important to invest into navy early on.
This lead to having pretty big t1 naval army when someone try to get t2 air. At this point you need to get a LOT of torpedo bomber to be able to inflict damage to opponent navy without losing everything in few second.
Problems is that even if air is better mass effective against t1/t2 boat, they still require a ton of bp to be able to get the critical number of torpedo bomber.
To that you need to have air control (in 1v1 you don t have an air player that can defend your torp bomber)
And there may/will be sone cruiser, that you need to focus down, and waste lot of dps on at the 1st path.
Then about destro, as zlo said, they were increadibly effective against strat. So yes strat bomber aren't the most effective way to deal with navy, but you can t accept destro to be that much effective against strat bomber...

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 08 Aug 2016, 13:07