Forged Alliance Forever

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-29T11:29:33+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:A global buff for two of the strongest units in the game is utterly indefensible, especially when it puts them ahead of their equals in other factions again (God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).

I'm expecting to hear the words "faction diversity" being uttered any minute now.

Please stay constructive.

DPS or Cost are both suboptimal..i am not sure if there is any good compensation, thats why i asked in the first place. DPS will not help against gunships, and the critical factor about gunships is to get flak there in time before they arrive, i don't think the assumption of less cost = more units = more ground covered is working. First, you always build as much flak as needed, you cant afford to have important ground uncovered, no matter if flak is more expensive or less. Thus, you won't cover more ground if its cheaper. You just have to invest less, which is an upside, but not helping the issue.

Second, even if it were correct, what is important against gunships is to get the first 2-5 flak out and in the key positions to defend, cost don't matter here, only the timing.

I also don't like to change the cost for one faction when all others are the same.

Since its impossible to buff the flak in a way that helps the gunship problem (unless someone can suggest something), a buff that makes the flak better in some relevant different area to compensate needs to be found. More DPS could work potentially, even though current DPS is already good and enough to scare away air, more won't make it much better than other flaks. More range or projectile speed could be an alternative, but they are not perfect either - still open to more suggestions. (or rather: they are required for the speed nerf to happen)

Moving this topic from the testing team to public balance discussion too, so other people can participate now where the beta is out.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 29 Jul 2016, 11:29

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-27T16:34:00+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
A global buff for two of the strongest units in the game is utterly indefensible, especially when it puts them ahead of their equals in other factions again (God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).

I'm expecting to hear the words "faction diversity" being uttered any minute now.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 27 Jul 2016, 16:34

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-27T14:45:54+02:00

If the issue with Sera is keeping up with the gunship raids (Defending the army isn't a problem because ilshies are slow) then I'd suggest one of two things:

- Increased DPS. Sera enjoy doing things using brute strength, and Cybran's DPS is higher anyway. 144 > 150 is a start, but that DPS could probably go to 160 before problems arose.
- Decrease cost. Less cost = more units = more ground covered. This more directly counteracts your concerns.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 27 Jul 2016, 14:45

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-27T13:52:02+02:00

I made the last change (the nerfs to flak) and I was the only one arguing for it, I had my reasons for this change, but with less hover speed this reasons are gone, so if the change needs to stay there need to be new reasoning for it.

If the mere fact that it should stay just because I put it in the last patch is reason enough, it's also reason enough for me to remove it again.

But I'm not against nerf in it for different treason if they are good. I already considered what you propose myself, it has some obvious upsides.

However, slowing down flak speed on land would make it harder for aeon and sera to deal with t2 gunships, while this might be actually good for aeon with their anyway strong t2 air, sera does not need any kind of additional nerf right now (and they'd get the biggest hit).

So if sera flak speed on land gets nerfed, they'd need to get some compensation (and not to compensate the difference to aeon, but to compensate the difference to e.g. Cybran) , which would already make the change more complex and thus less desirable compared to how it was before (which I keep believing wasn't op unless shown otherwise, hover flak always played a secondary role on water and the speed on land was always quite fine).

But if someone can suggest a good compensation for sera, aligning the speed of flak to heavy instead of light tanks is something we can do.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 27 Jul 2016, 13:52

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-27T13:36:50+02:00

Well I for one think the "Status Quo" is and always has been complete bullshit. Come up with one legitimate reason for Aeon and Seraphim's T2 Mobile Flak to be so outrageously strictly superior to the other two, I dare you. It's no good arguing about entire stages of the game when, in this case, it's just going to lead to unjustified imbalance increases.

I propose that something be done with the speed on all four to bring logic, balance, diversity and convenience to their use. It just so happens that the primary assault tank at T2 for Aeon and Seraphim are slower than the UEF or Cybran ones. There-in lies the solution, and it's exactly what you said above. We make it so all T2 flak are the same speed as the primary tank on land (Better convenience for managing armies, which is your whole argument for this debacle in the first place). In return for their slower land speed, the Aeon and Seraphim then get not only hover in the first place, but also a speed boost on water up to 3.48 (The new speed of the hovertanks).

Within the four, we then have a mild internal shift. The UEF will be slightly faster than Cybran, but has less DPS to compensate, so we're good there. The Seraphim is slightly slower than the Aeon on land, but otherwise identical, so I think it should be given a little something in order to compensate there.

Also, please note that the current balance in main FAF is very good in this case. Pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you Zock. The onus of reason is not with us, it is on you. YOU need to provide reasons for changing a very good status quo, one in which flak could be argued as being OP already! It is functionally incorrect for you to change something for very weak reasons, then insist we argue against change. You need to argue FOR the change.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 27 Jul 2016, 13:36

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-27T10:43:15+02:00

Morax wrote:
Zock wrote:If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

Are you telling me you think it's not absurdly easy to win as Sera on Haven Reef, Roanoake, etc etc verse other factions?

And Open Waters which no one plays because it is ridiculous to play anything other than Sera?

I think its harder, but by no means impossible, indeed. And the speed of hover flak has not much impact as the major annoyance comes from fobos, which won't be changed.

The flak is back to status quo now. If anyone wants a nerf, he needs to bring some arguments for it, and think of a useful nerf thats different to speed for the reasons mentioned already.

And there is no use in comparing single units like flak with each other and point out one of them is better than the others, (my) balance works by comparing factions or tech stages. Is hover flak speed making aeon and sera too strong? While aeon is in no need for a buff, sera can use some additional advantages here and there, and if it fits well together with existing advantages to make certain strategies (like hover) possible or stronger for a faction, its very good, as long as its not OP.

A speed nerf for land only (aka buff for water only) is not bad, but it has two downsides too:
a) its still gonna reduce convinience when using it with hovertanks on land, the alternative would be to make it as slow as obsidian/ilshie but i am quite sure that would be too much nerf
b) its reducing faction diversity by making all flak the same speed, even though the difference is already not very meaningful, so its a lesser point

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 27 Jul 2016, 10:43

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-27T02:53:17+02:00

aside from high noon and haven reef (not 100% about haven reef) i think on other maps you have tools to protect against sera.
frigates, bombers, jesters, t1 tanks, auroras, labs ect.... it is often hard to micro against those but if you do micro you can handle it and harras with same tools that you deflected t1 arty

tho i can't disagree that smart use of single unscouted t1 arty can give really big advantage to sera players, while spamming a ton of them usually does not work so well

IceDreamer wrote:
(God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).

maybe they didn't want it to run in front of the army? who knows

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 27 Jul 2016, 02:53

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-26T21:39:13+02:00

Zock wrote:
If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

They had bigger fish to fry, fish that have since BEEN fried.

That is not the same as it being OK.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 26 Jul 2016, 21:39

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-26T19:17:19+02:00

Morax wrote:
Zock wrote:If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

Are you telling me you think it's not absurdly easy to win as Sera on Haven Reef, Roanoake, etc etc verse other factions?

And Open Waters which no one plays because it is ridiculous to play anything other than Sera?

Well, that is not really true, Open waters can be played with any faction (unless you are Aeon vs UEF, then you are screwed).
About hover flaks, indeed they should be slower because they can go through water AND with shields, buffing their speed is awful idea.

Statistics: Posted by NapSpan — 26 Jul 2016, 19:17

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-26T17:23:06+02:00

Zock wrote:
If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

Are you telling me you think it's not absurdly easy to win as Sera on Haven Reef, Roanoake, etc etc verse other factions?

And Open Waters which no one plays because it is ridiculous to play anything other than Sera?

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 26 Jul 2016, 17:23

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-26T15:34:14+02:00

If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 26 Jul 2016, 15:34

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-26T15:25:32+02:00

Um, no... please no changes to OP hover units. It's absolutely disgusting as is how annoying it is to deal with zthuees on a map like Roanoake where you have to dedicate apm to stop them with part of your navy. If you lose the ability to use air control because t2 hover flak is right up there with navy then you pretty much are declaring it impossible to beat Sera in that kind of a situation.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 26 Jul 2016, 15:25

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-26T00:08:40+02:00

No, it doesn't.

T2 Flak are among the strongest units in the game. The Aeon and Seraphim are the strongest of the four, as they have already got higher speed AND hover abilities compared to the other two.

Frankly I don't care what they were before change X and adjustment Y. Right now, there is no reason to buff them in any way that stands up to scrutiny! "Don't think of this as a buff" ?! It IS a buff, doesn't matter what you call it.

Your reasoning is: Need the speed to make controlling mixed Navy easier. Fine. Use the existing code to have them faster over water than over land.

A global buff for two of the strongest units in the game is utterly indefensible, especially when it puts them ahead of their equals in other factions again (God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 26 Jul 2016, 00:08

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-25T22:13:02+02:00

See it not as buff, but as less nerf compared to the stats before we nerfs all hover to solve problems with it. The reason the flak speed was nerfed there was only, as single purpose, to keep the equal speed with tanks for convenience. Otherwise they would still have their 3.6 speed. They are strong units, but apart from convenience there was no reason to nerf them.

As the reason for the flak speed change is gone, it's reverted, but it's also needed to revert it for the same reason (same speed as tanks) it was implemented in the first place. The fact that they are also more convenient to use with ships is a nice bonus.

So far for the reasoning. However independent from the power of a unit, convince should come first, and balance can follow. If hover flak is too good, that's not a reason to not buff the speed, but a reason to nerf it in ways that don't make it more annoying to use (cost, damage, whatever).

Now is this the case, is hover flak too good? Maybe, but if it is, it must have been too good all the time before the last nerfs to it, and it would be unrelated to this speed changes. And there haven't been any serious arguments about nerfing it before,its undoubtedly a good unit, and it doesn't need any buff, even though I don't see enough reasons to warrant a nerf either. If other people do, it can be discussed as anything else.

But this is not a real buff, it's a reverted nerf (they are still a bit worse than before now).

Hope this clears things up

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 25 Jul 2016, 22:13

Re: T2 Hover Flak

2016-07-25T21:28:31+02:00

i agree, sera frigate AA is actually not bad, and aeon should rather have an AA boat buff, and neither cybran nor uef can utilize floaty flak at all

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 25 Jul 2016, 21:28