Forged Alliance Forever

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T15:38:20+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
Also i doubt 1 pd will stop gun ACU. You protect pd with your body? Ok, arty pd or damage idle acu first with arty. Too much dps to compite for PD and ACU because they can't move.

whiteout arty it win, you jast build pd behind you, or behind enemy acu (turn time is about 2s+turn back 2s build time of t1 pd is 6s) but at all its stupid threat....

i was testing only nano vs only t2 = nano slightly won, then i test
nano vs gun = gun hard win
t2 vs gun = nearly draw, and i say for myself : whut? how is his posible, here is something wrong. and test
t2+build vs gun = t2+build hard win, but it was too artifical, and only because acu was jast shoting and nothing more.

now i feel quite upset, because whole threat was ussles and wrong, thats hard found some excuse so i create this treat to not be posible to be with t2 so hard better against gun as with nano. but its not about t2 but about nano, and i dont think much about it.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Nov 2015, 15:38

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T15:21:15+02:00

Gorton wrote:
[EDIT] I locked this thread on request from Ithilis

Okay.

Also i doubt 1 pd will stop gun ACU. You protect pd with your body? Ok, arty pd or damage idle acu first with arty. Too much dps to compite for PD and ACU because they can't move.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 13 Nov 2015, 15:21

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T14:28:44+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
so,
thx everyone for forcing me rereading my own junk, and realize that its stupid idea.

my mind was linking on uef nano post and how its uncomporable with t2, then i test it, then how it should be more support upgrade as military uprgade and kaboom this post was create.

But after reading your reply realize that at all its bad idea.

Nano needs a change. I'd like to see it buffed or replaced with jamming. Good jamming, though.

[EDIT] I locked this thread on request from Ithilis

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 13 Nov 2015, 14:28

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T14:28:11+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
i wouldn't say that gun >>>>>>t2

you can counter early gun with t2 in a lot of cases if you manage to build 1 pd in time, you just stand in front of it so he cant oc it and then you win, as long as the pd survives. if you have the mass you need roughly 30 seconds before he arrives. if you get overrun by units and your pd dies you should know that its not because of the the magic gun upgrade but because you built fewer units.

after the first pd survives then you are pretty much safe and need to abuse pd as much as you can since you have it - push to his base as fast as possible before he can get t2 land and reclaim all of those tanks you secured when he tried to push you.

Some problems :

if you manage to build 1 pd in time,

So here, we're assuming that you finish t2 at roughly the same time or before the gun; that you predict where the enemy will push; actually manage to build a t2 pd in that time; that there isn't another way he can move around you; your t2 pd can actually stop the guy?

Depending on map size here, on a 5x5 there really isn't too much contest. It can be done : no disputing that, but i'd find it unlikely to work. With similar armies, I have every confidence you can push a single t2 pd with a gun acu and similar armies.
It would work better with t2 engies, since you'd be able to use acu to fight and prevent an upgrade in the meantime.

Here I would say gun >>>>>>>>>>>>> t2

On a 10x10, it's a lot different. You probably can build 1 or even multiple pds with a t2 acu against a gun commander, prevent them advancing. Then you're (possibly) stuck, though. Unless you secured at least half map or gained other advantages, it's only making you unable to really fight back.
But then again you can topple big fortifications with t2 and gun and a reasonable army, with t2 power fueling OC.
And we have to consider that on a 10x10 map, the guy with gun can have some mml to take out any pds, and without gun or other long range, difficult to stop.

Basically : There's a lot of variables. But in general, gun outclasses t2 when more direct conflict is going to happen.

Sorry if this post is unclear/ rushed, I had to write it in 2 min so I wouldn't time out

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 13 Nov 2015, 14:28

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T14:15:43+02:00

so,
thx everyone for forcing me rereading my own junk, and realize that its stupid idea.

my mind was linking on uef nano post and how its uncomporable with t2, then i test it, then how it should be more support upgrade as military uprgade and kaboom this post was create.

But after reading your reply realize that at all its bad idea.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Nov 2015, 14:15

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T13:59:50+02:00

i wouldn't say that gun >>>>>>t2

you can counter early gun with t2 in a lot of cases if you manage to build 1 pd in time, you just stand in front of it so he cant oc it and then you win, as long as the pd survives. if you have the mass you need roughly 30 seconds before he arrives. if you get overrun by units and your pd dies you should know that its not because of the the magic gun upgrade but because you built fewer units.

after the first pd survives then you are pretty much safe and need to abuse pd as much as you can since you have it - push to his base as fast as possible before he can get t2 land and reclaim all of those tanks you secured when he tried to push you.

if he gets gun and doesn't push you that's ok because you can build 2 pd then walls and then just leave that place because spam cant really get there.

so really the pressure is on the gun acu to make his upg pay off, not as much on you since you can build some tml and such and make your upg pay off by making some very efficient defenses vs t1 spam, so you need less of it letting you make t2 land instead.
if he gets gun later at the t2 stage simply for ocing better units that a more useful way of using it, since t2 isn't as great later then your pd can get mmled. still t2 lets you get t3 later on com and gun doesn't if you're aeon/cyb. if you're uef/sera you can get both but that's not relevant in this case.
if you don't have the mass to build pd then t2 is also not so good since you don't have enough time to counter the initial push from a gun com.
also since you cant repair acu you need a t2 upg to get when you are low on hp, if you can repair acu its more acceptable for t2 not to give you hp.

however if you see enemy making gun in a teamgame then you can just get t2 and stop him. also add to that how hes in your territory so its much easier to snipe, get help ect ect.

what i find most interesting of all is that people claimed that t2 and gun were very balanced upgrades before engy mod where it got a buff from 30 to 42 bp.

i see pd creep as a valid strategy, and don't think it should be just removed from the game. if its too strong then t2 upg can be nerfed (buildpower would make sense), but not given some mystery buff when not in combat, since that actually helps you get that first pd to counter guncom anyway, and can be abused in lots of ways im sure.

hope this helps

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 13 Nov 2015, 13:59

Re: T2 ACU upgrade -> as support upgrade

2015-11-13T14:00:21+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
If i'm not mistaken there are not a lot of upgrades which turn ACU into a supporting unit - very expensive UEF bubble shield, aeon omni, aeon chrono, seraphim restoration fields how much are these really used?

+ uef drones

The proto idea was change enginering upgrade on ACU into supporting unit. On this field exist problem, because most of them are ussles, or are very bad alternatives to oposite upgrade.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Nov 2015, 13:58

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T13:45:20+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
There is no problems with t2 ACU upgrade. There is problem with alternatives. There are 2 factions that have this problem - UEF and seraphim. In both cases alternative is an extremely situational upgrade for later stages which simply doesn't compite with t2. You don't get t2 upgrade with aeon or cybran if you plan to use ACU as main offencive weapon, do you? Leave t2 alone and fix the core problem - UEF nano and seraphim 2d gun.

hmm you are right. I write too many junk... This post should not be about op T2 because T2 is definitly not op. Its about alternatives, and strategy options. I have feeling that T2 is potencial too good on role on with it should not be, and too weak on role on with it should be. Then it fill same role as gun and lead to PD creap witch is not good for gamepaly.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Nov 2015, 13:45

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T13:41:58+02:00

Now about the test replay. As it was mentioned, there was no usage of range and ACU mobility at all. There also wasn't anything about using full potential of gun which is called "over charge". So as there wasn't units and in particular mobile arty that kills pds in 1-2 seconds. This test shows nothing than probably a gameplay of <800 rated players.

And about basic concept you want to make - getting t2 on ACU just to build base is a dumb idea no matter how you look at it. Why? because t1 engineers are far more efficient and getting t2 on factory for t2 structures will allow you to build t2 structures in multiple areas. Yes ACU costs less mass, but more power, but it's alone and doesn't provide access to mobile units.

If i'm not mistaken there are not a lot of upgrades which turn ACU into a supporting unit - very expensive UEF bubble shield, aeon omni, aeon chrono, seraphim restoration fields how much are these really used?

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 13 Nov 2015, 13:41

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T13:32:38+02:00

Like nope. Guncom >>>>> T2. Range is utterly, ridiculously strong, not to mention survivability vs armies is way, WAY higher with guncom than T2. The two upgrades are fair and there's no need to change either.

Apofenas wrote:
There is no problems with t2 ACU upgrade. There is problem with alternatives. There are 2 factions that have this problem - UEF and seraphim. In both cases alternative is an extremely situational upgrade for later stages which simply doesn't compite with t2. You don't get t2 upgrade with aeon or cybran if you plan to use ACU as main offencive weapon, do you? Leave t2 alone and fix the core problem - UEF nano and seraphim 2d gun.

Basically this. Ithilis needs to take a look at actual gameplay and see the thing that's right in front of his eyes: Guncom is both VERY popular, and VERY much more powerful than T2. T2 com loses to guncom in just about every single engagement I've ever seen, because reality not sandbox.

Seraphim second gun is really, really strong. The trouble is that it loses the ACU the bulk needed to actually use it. I suppose it's meant to be used with Advanced Nano for bulk, but then you're looking at two very expensive upgrades. I think that second gun needs to have a cost reduction OR needs to add a bit of HP of its own, equal to T3's bulk probably, because T3 buildpower is arguably a combat ability given the power of T1 PD.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 13 Nov 2015, 13:32

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T13:25:04+02:00

There is no problems with t2 ACU upgrade. There is problem with alternatives. There are 2 factions that have this problem - UEF and seraphim. In both cases alternative is an extremely situational upgrade for later stages which simply doesn't compite with t2. You don't get t2 upgrade with aeon or cybran if you plan to use ACU as main offencive weapon, do you? Leave t2 alone and fix the core problem - UEF nano and seraphim 2d gun.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 13 Nov 2015, 13:25

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T12:54:48+02:00

RoLa wrote:
If you really want it as defensive choice add one more thing to your suggestion.
Double build rate near t2 hq, triple near t3 hq.

it is what it do T2hq have 40br. T2 acu 42br so when its near it have more as double br of T2HQ. And when have T3 acu then its 1,5x more br on T3HQ.
____________

Or course that its whiteout using range what is main advantage, what i would profe when one acu will recieve dmg and other will be out of range? But once you are on range you must run out because pd kill you and when dont kill or run fast enought its no way back. Then its risk win or lose and game end on that moment, mostly its go out of buildable pd creep because people want to play and not w8 in lobby for another game...

What is this proving is that: when is gun acu vs T2 acu and t2 acu have reasource for build, then on close range its win, on long range it depend, but still its more likely to win.
T2 acu with reasource should win against gun acu, when have time to build defense, and not when build defence for attack.
___________

This hp boost move support upgrade to fight upgrade and that degrade choice between gun or t2. I would rather have upgrade that is more choice on different strategy as have upgrade that is must to be for both when chose agresive strategy.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Nov 2015, 12:54

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T12:33:58+02:00

test made with bias. Not using the range advantage of gun com, which is way more important than the double dps. Resulting in no attempt of kitting micro.
Therefore, whole theory is non-admissible.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 13 Nov 2015, 12:33

Re: T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T12:29:27+02:00

If you really want it as defensive choice add one more thing to your suggestion.

Double build rate near t2 hq, triple near t3 hq.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 13 Nov 2015, 12:29

T2 ACU upgrade

2015-11-13T14:36:13+02:00

after reding you posts, and re-reading what i write i consider that at all it was bad idea.

[Gorton] : Locked

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Nov 2015, 12:21