Forged Alliance Forever

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-10-12T15:44:05+02:00

By the time you have any significant number of RAS SACU... Destruction of BP is more important than destruction of mass resources.

Generally there will be enough reclaim on the map.

Statistics: Posted by Tremarl — 12 Oct 2015, 15:44

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-11T20:38:09+02:00

What if rasCU's didn't leave reclaim? It would make those a bit less of a safe investment, and you could justify it by saying the extra resource generation makes it more volatile

Statistics: Posted by quark036 — 11 Sep 2015, 20:38

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-11T13:52:40+02:00

The paragon can't move, have a lot of hp, build, defend itself or not nuke half your base on death

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 11 Sep 2015, 13:52

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-11T12:59:48+02:00

If you nerf them that a paragon is better than scu (which is already nearly the case) then you can delete scu ras

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 11 Sep 2015, 12:59

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-11T00:37:57+02:00

briang wrote:
Uh... if I make mass fabs and bricks and you make SCU and bricks I will win by a landslide with the extra mass in bricks I get.

nice statement. id even say its quite accurate. but its not super relevant. im not sure what you understood, so il explain it for you simpler:

scenario 1 shows that scu + 10 bricks > 10 bricks
pretty obvious - i basically meant that you can use scus to defend at least somehow.
scenario 2 shows that scu + 10 bricks > 11 bricks
but scu + 10 bricks < 15 bricks
this was a more realistic scenario that depends on the amount of extra mass generated - the time you + opponent have been ecoing.

this is similar to what you said, but again it puts time in as a factor or it doesn't make much sense.

Spoiler: show

in any case ive said my point earlier, and with that im leaving this thread:
ras sacu are better than before because reasons, they were also good before because reasons, now imo they are a bit too op and they make the game a litle boring

TLDR: sacu in general need balancing to be more fun, and that also includes ras sacu.

hope this helps

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 11 Sep 2015, 00:37

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-10T21:54:19+02:00

briang wrote:
If you build 20 of them while your opponent has been building exps X mass in non-combat SACU will lose horribly to X mass in land exps.

... well yeah that's obvious
but its not a relevant comparison

if you put x mass into mass fabs and i put x mass into snoops guess whos gonna win? eco isnt really intended for combat.

point is that i can use it inefficiently - we both put y mass into bricks, then we both put x mass into eco - you mass fabs, i scus, you will have a larger mass income but i will win the battle.

but that's not a super great comparison either. what really should be compared is x mass scu + y mass army vs y mass army + army from extra mass that x mass fabs get in z time.
which isn't exactly a super easy thing to compare, so we just need to wait a while for people to realize how they can abuse ras scus, and see if they are actually abusable.
so far we've seen scu spam increase by quite a bit since the patch, which is mostly due to the added convenience

and i wouldn't use them in combat. if you park one in your base under 2 shields it will have lets say 40k hp. just by standing there it draws 10s of ml laser away from t3 units. mass fabs don't do this.

so this means that i can use this to defend my base easier because i can abuse target priority to put damage into something that isnt really defending the base

Spoiler: show

TLDR you can use ras scu as shields now, so they are more useful than before.

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 10 Sep 2015, 21:54

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-10T16:28:10+02:00

briang wrote:
That would suggest people are lazy

sorry what

people are the laziest thing ever!
this is why ras sacu spam has increased a lot since last patch.

also ras sacu have a few benefits other than being easy to spam so there's that too. you listed most of them.
im not sure if anyone bothers using adjacency bonus for ras sacu but it makes them cheaper and therefore better

however all of that pales in comparison to the fact that for some absurd reason sacu leave wrecks. including the preset values at that.

so, dont worry if someone manages to snipe your 16-19k hp mass fab, because you can reclaim it and only lose 1-2k mass.

i think that using sacu as bait is now a complete thing. because exp prioritize sacu, you just park one in range and get it to spam shields. that's maybe 10 extra seconds of time for your defenders to kill an exp, then you just reclaim the sacu and the 30k mass gift.

this is the advantage over mass fabs. eco that can actually defend itself as well. and when you get 10-20 sacu they even beat an exp on their own, and it hurts 81% less if you lose a couple.

in other news i think that the decision to make sacu reclaimable was the worst one made this patch

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 10 Sep 2015, 16:28

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-10T05:21:49+02:00

I'm glad you don't disagree that convenience is an issue.

All I did was wonder about statistics. It would be interesting to see how or even if it has changed.

Statistics: Posted by Deering — 10 Sep 2015, 05:21

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-10T03:39:07+02:00

Convenience makes a difference. Rambo scus are a perfect example. You could build them before the presets and be just as powerful but due to the inconvenience it wasn't really an issue. Please try to think about things before you attempt your condescension.

Very soon after the preset was introduced I heard of games with blackheart having 1.5k mass income augmented by scus. I also watched a replay where apofenas had 140 scus. With assist on the gateway they were producing another scu every 10 seconds or so. I would like to see that matched with static eco.

I was merely interested how often this kind of thing happened before the preset. If you are trying to say convenience has no effect on balance I disagree with you.

Statistics: Posted by Deering — 10 Sep 2015, 03:39

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-10T00:14:10+02:00

I'd like to see the stat differences of how high mass incomes got before and after the ras preset was introduced. The preset makes it absurdly easy to spit out dozens of ras SCUs which was very difficult to do before not to mention Sera getting left behind since it lacks it.

Statistics: Posted by Deering — 10 Sep 2015, 00:14

Re: sACU ras discussion

2015-09-09T18:06:06+02:00

Split from RAS discussion

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 09 Sep 2015, 18:06

Re: RAS and its role in the game

2015-09-07T01:17:47+02:00

Actually most people I've seen prefer RASCu's over mass fabs. I'm certainly not a top player but I go for RASCu's as often as possible.

Statistics: Posted by theeggroll — 07 Sep 2015, 01:17

Re: RAS and its role in the game

2015-09-06T19:21:41+02:00

T2 mass fab:
Cost: 100 mass
Mass prod: 1
E consumation: 150
T2 mass fab + 1 mass storage (already build, ie next to mexx):
Mass prod: 1.125
T2 mass fab + 2 mass storage (already build):
Mass pro: 1.25
=====> 1 mass production cost : 294 (taking account the price of T3 pgen powering it)
=====> 1 mass production cost : 261 (taking account the price of T3 pgen powering it + 1 mass storage already build)
=====> 1 mass production cost : 235 (taking account the price of T3 pgen powering it + 2 mass storage already build)
T2 mass fab (with adjency to T3 pgen) => 258
aeon scu ras : 1 mass production cost : 586 (I’m not taking account of the e income)
uef scu ras : 1 mass production cost : 600 (I’m not taking account of the e income)
sera scu : 1 mass production cost : 1025 (I’m not taking account of the e income)

aeon scu ras with 15% discount thx to adjency : 1 mass production cost : 498

Fyi :
1 scu ras : 11 mass production.
1 sera scu : 2 mass production. (i would like to bring it to 2.5 to make 1 mass production cost 820)

i would suggest to build mass fab next to safe mexx, and switch to sacu after ward because BP is also really important late game

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 06 Sep 2015, 18:42

Re: RAS and its role in the game

2015-09-06T18:34:13+02:00

But you already buy other qualities with that mass. I would pay more for my pgens and massfabs if they could move, damage, regen and have high health! Not to mention that if you spot buildings theyll never dissapear from your radar. and you talk about mass storage adjacency for a massfab but like i said i thought T2 massfabs was the way to go, and that doesn't get adjacency. But i did discard adjeceny when i thought about this, so maybe with that it will be better

Statistics: Posted by wasdf — 06 Sep 2015, 18:34

Re: RAS and its role in the game

2015-09-06T18:42:04+02:00

so much bad calculation in this thread... this is ugly.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 06 Sep 2015, 18:19