Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-29T11:21:29+02:00

Wagners just have a different role. they are not the pseudo navy that hover is or once was.

You have to win navy with navy as a Cybran. This means protecting your naval production because you have nothing to fall back on. It can also be a problem when your Setons mid player neglects hover from other factions and made navy in the wrong pond. It is just faction diversity.

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 29 Sep 2015, 11:21

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-27T12:47:19+02:00

briang wrote:
Wagners only doesn't work ifc, neither does hover only. I feel like we are arguing the same thing?

Maybe you've noticed that you like to argue?

Statistics: Posted by KD7BCH — 27 Sep 2015, 12:47

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-25T07:07:06+02:00

It allows you to avoid hover tanks crossing the map gang banging frigates, raiding mexes and pushing your base with ACU. Instead it causes hover to fight with wagners, forces to invest a lot more time and resources into naval play to counter wagners. So yes, losing navy will cause wagners to die and lose you a game. Which is the reason building wagners only will never work; you still have to build your own navy. They will only force heavier naval play from sera/aeon and help to protect themselves or tank damage during naval battles.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 25 Sep 2015, 07:07

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-25T03:37:57+02:00

keyser wrote:
well even if rhino is one the worst T2 tank, it's still better suited for most situation. (army fight : better hp/dps for price, don't waste dps/miss, terrain issue rarelly impact in army fight but more when there is few unit i feel like)
you can use wagner for sniping com (less life (doesn't matter since OC), better dps, can finish com underwater sometimes), raid (faster, kill pds), setting trap.

i like the complementarity of those 2 units, i would be annoy if this is broken, even if wagner isn't usefull for navy battle.

Wagner:
+Does better against ACU
+Does better on maps with water elements
+Does better on bigger maps
+Leads mantis raids mantis raids
+Keeps up for hoplites
+Can keep up for loyalists
+Doesn't have to kill lines of walls
+Doesn't fight terrain
+Can catch ilshavohs faster
+Doesn't allow range bots to run away
+Can catch and surround harb
Rhino:
+Does a bit better with medusas
+Does a bit better in direct fight
+Doesn't miss
+Causes percival to overkill

I prefer wagner's advantages over rhino advantages.

briang wrote:
On High Noon yes, you can deny navy with T1 hover. But any ladder map? No.

Is it only about ladder? I can name a bunch of team game maps where ACU rush with hover leaves you with no navy and less resources right in the beginning of the game and than ACU leaves and you have problems with navy.

And those 1v1 maps i spoke about were removed for a reason: t1 and better t2 hover is insta win. While testing IceDreamer's mod i had 50/50 chances with Wagners vs Riptides on wilderness. Still less against aeon and sera, but i had an option to prevent enemy ACU movements under water and kill groups of auroras 1 by 1 before they reach my mexes, so games lasted untill aeon sub hunters or sera destroyers eliminate wagners/kill torp ACU.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 25 Sep 2015, 03:37

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T22:58:55+02:00

better thing to do to this unit, is to fix it so it can kill aeon T1 pd. atm only aeon T1 pd can't be kill by wagner

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 24 Sep 2015, 22:58

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T20:00:38+02:00

because on some map you could get fast T1 land to denie navy fast. (you weren't able to get your first frigate out) And you could defend your T1 hover with inte against gunship. it always hard to count on air to balance issue between navy/land unit, since air isn't really reliable.

but the weakness of those few map shouldn't impact the balance of the game. And we should keep wagner as a strong raiding unit imo.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 24 Sep 2015, 20:00

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T19:27:02+02:00

keyser wrote:
thing is that uef still have T2 hover to get back from a sea lose after losing navy early because of T1 hover on some map. they can turtle/eco and get the sea back, but cybran can't with land facto.

I don't understand this. There is no T1 hover AA. So why can't Cybran use T1 gunships to defeat T1 hover at that stage?

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 24 Sep 2015, 19:27

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T18:56:20+02:00

briang wrote:
Are you saying we should balance for unplayable (bad) maps? That is like saying hover is OP based on a high noon game. UEF has just as much trouble against T1 hover.

Simple fact is that frigates are beat hover hands down mass for mass, cybran especially.

thing is that uef still have T2 hover to get back from a sea lose after losing navy early because of T1 hover on some map. they can turtle/eco and get the sea back, but cybran can't with land facto.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 24 Sep 2015, 18:56

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T18:53:46+02:00

I didn't build rhino at least for a year. Cybran is my most played faction.

well even if rhino is one the worst T2 tank, it's still better suited for most situation. (army fight : better hp/dps for price, don't waste dps/miss, terrain issue rarelly impact in army fight but more when there is few unit i feel like)
you can use wagner for sniping com (less life (doesn't matter since OC), better dps, can finish com underwater sometimes), raid (faster, kill pds), setting trap.

i like the complementarity of those 2 units, i would be annoy if this is broken, even if wagner isn't usefull for navy battle.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 24 Sep 2015, 18:53

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T18:44:32+02:00

Go try Four corners with frigates vs auroras and than last exile or wilderness with frigates vs aurora/zthuuee + blaze/yenzine. And after that try to figure out why frigates lose on such maps.

I'm sure theeggroll didn't speak about losing to hover, but spoke about losing navy in general.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 24 Sep 2015, 18:44

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T16:19:34+02:00

briang wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to buff Wagner torps. Cybran navy is already potent enough to compensate. I don't see any top naval players taking this seriously and I'd honestly be embarrassed to ask any of them for their opinions.

Seriously, throw in useful input or shut up. Just because players aren't in top 5 doesn't mean they can't have valid opinions, I personally respect Gorton and Apof as very good players.

As an avid Cybran player, the lack of float means that once you are our of the water, there is absolutely no getting back in. Its very frustrating when floaty shit can be out significantly faster than extra frigates, turning the fame very early. (Not a problem on bit maps)

Statistics: Posted by theeggroll — 24 Sep 2015, 16:19

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T15:50:54+02:00

KD7BCH wrote:
briang wrote:Why ruin it's land use when there is no reason to increase the torp dps?

wow, solid logic, I'm impressed.

I think it's answer to my suggestion to nerf its direct fire weapons. If wagner gets torp dps buff it has to be done for 2 reasons: 1)it has it because it's useless under water; 2)it is better than rhino in some game situations and equal or not much worse in others, which is kinda retared. I didn't build rhino at least for a year. Cybran is my most played faction.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 24 Sep 2015, 15:50

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T15:13:10+02:00

briang wrote:
Why ruin it's land use when there is no reason to increase the torp dps?

wow, solid logic, I'm impressed.

Statistics: Posted by KD7BCH — 24 Sep 2015, 15:13

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T08:53:27+02:00

briang wrote:
Let's use a Seton's example:

Okay, most popular map. Got a huge body of water to work with.

briang wrote:
you are playing UEF vs UEF navy, when all of thE sudden 50 Wagner show up and rape all of your shield boats. Make coopers pre-emptively, sure, good way to fall behind vs your opponent. Hover is countered by units that you are building in the first place.

So theoretically we ought to nerf sub hunters and force them to surface in order to be effective? Because if you have no power against torpedoes at all it seems like sub hunters would kill you faster and more efficiently than a slow moving tank with less range and less DPS than a T1 sub.

briang wrote:
Not to mention that the Wagner is DAMN good in 1v1.

Dude, it's basically a more fragile Rhino but with higher DPS to sort of even it out. Most prefer the Rhino. The Wagner is an okay tank but I wouldn't call it "damn" good like it's the finest weapon you've seen this side of the quantum gateway.

briang wrote:
Cybran T1 and T2 navy is too strong to need buffed wagners. People use the hell out of them in 1v1, considering I've never seen you before I have a feeling you may bot be the most experienced player on these forums. I'm not either, but navy and air are my things, and Cybran Navy absolutely does not need this.

A player who relies on Wagners to bolster his navy instead of Destroyers or other conventional naval units would lose at navy. A multi-role Wagner would be practical for maps other than Setons where there's water but not too much of it - enough that people might not choose to focus heavily on navy. Cybran is always at a disadvantage there. Imagine you're playing a map with some water between you and your opponent builds a Governor. Now, you're doing air drops or something - I don't know, but you're Cybran and you don't have boats in the water. You can always drop everything and chase it with the ACU torpedo upgrade, but that's risky for reasons I've mentioned before. Either way, you're certainly not building a naval factory NOW that it's too late. So a winning fight turns to a losing one because you don't have a lot of options; the only realistic choice is to build torpedo bombers, which lack an edge over cruisers due to the cruiser's AA weaponry.

Anyway, I know terrible players who are "experts" at their favorite things and they're terrible at their "expertise", so don't pull disrespect by accusing me of being too new to understand why exactly I'd want a multi-role amphibious tank and I won't assume you're an "expert". I know exactly why I want the Wagner to have better torpedoes even though I know it can't replace actual naval units. Just nerf its land DPS to make it more mediocre out of the water. It's not a "damn fine" tank, it's an average tank for T2 as it currently is.

yeager wrote:
LOL t1 hover is shit in naval warfare, the aura is eh, (why not build frigates?)

Because frigates are more expensive than T1 hover and you can threaten enemy land facilities with a unit that can go on land? Are we still talking about Setons? Not every map is Setons.

Apofenas wrote:
I do not want wagners being good against navy. I want cybrans having same option as other factions on hover biased maps like paradise, wilderness ect.

In a nutshell this is all I'm advocating. Just a multi-role option for the very specific maps where that kind of function is handy. Some people might feel like the Wagner in its current existence is stronger for those maps since it has the same land potential as your standard T2 tank, but I'd like the ability to use a land factory to modestly push back against navy if it needs to happen. And without setting my ACU up for a torp bomber snipe.

Again, it's not a needed change. It would be nice for the versatility but the game is fine without. I'd just like it. Anyone saying it would be a balance problem is just flat wrong because, as mentioned by someone else, why on earth would you build Wagners instead of destroyers? Or if torpedoes with less power than a T1 sub's would be so powerful against your navy, I imagine I could easily beat you by spamming up a few sub hunters. Or heck, I could build T3 arty or a nuke. What the heck are you doing over there that your pro navy strategies are losing to tanks that cost as much as T1 subs and do less damage, have less range, and move more slowly than T1 subs? I could beat you with anything.

Statistics: Posted by Flamingo — 24 Sep 2015, 08:53

Re: Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

2015-09-24T04:53:59+02:00

keyser wrote:
meeeeh it's funny to snipe people underwater with them... why do you remove every way of trolling ??? :c

You have brick torps for that.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 24 Sep 2015, 04:53