Forged Alliance Forever

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-15T05:25:06+02:00

Truth, I just sai cybran cause it is a better all rounder and has better health+refueling station (that no one uses) etc

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 15 Jul 2015, 05:25

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-15T02:55:12+02:00

yeager wrote:
Cruiser: seraphim

I don't think this is a fair comparison. You build each ship for different reasons. The cybran unit adds its dps to naval direct fire engagements, whereas the seraphim cruiser is massively superior when it comes to bombarding a base. However, if you're talking about a direct naval-on-naval fight, then if your cybran opponent is building cruisers for damage, you can beat him by spending the same amount of mass on more of your destroyers. Sure, you build both for Anti-air, but you yourself said that seraphim beat out cybran there.

Statistics: Posted by ZenTractor — 15 Jul 2015, 02:55

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T21:28:36+02:00

Ionic wrote:
Full T2 cybran subs can be a deadly surprise.. I have a few funny stories. Just like I have stories of stealth bases and TML's.

But the vast majority of times, you are an idiot if you build subs. Except T3 Subs.

A battleship can ground fire 10-15 subs, a teammate can build T3 torps if you have hover the torps will get 10 passes, kill every sub. The air wouldn't dare fly over 1/5 the mass of the subs in flak.

Yeah, rarely does anyone go ALL subs but it's the same deal in most cases(if both teams put the same amount of Eco into cruisers destroyers etc it is the same result, you just left less mass to be put into subs)

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 14 Jul 2015, 21:28

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T21:45:23+02:00

I just said mermaids cause they came to mind first and cause they are a better companion vs subs cause of the torp def, don't be a jerk (I know we're arguing but everyone's friends here ), also it doesn't make the point any different, and sure, the same amount of ilshavohs can kill there equivalent in percivals(not sure if that one specifically is true but ou get it), but in they won't have full fire power when they are done, and take too long to mass up like that(not to mention the range advantage that can be exploited more if percivals run away) but neither of these apply to cybran, it is very, very rare that space is an issue with subs and they can be built quickenough to work well, also vs an unmicroed subhunter they lose no damage

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 14 Jul 2015, 21:25

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T21:23:05+02:00

Full T2 cybran subs can be a deadly surprise.. I have a few funny stories. Just like I have stories of stealth bases and TML's.

But the vast majority of times, you are an idiot if you build subs. Except T3 Subs.

A battleship can ground fire 10-15 subs, a teammate can build T3 torps if you have hover the torps will get 10 passes, kill every sub. The air wouldn't dare fly over 1/5 the mass of the subs in flak.

Statistics: Posted by Ionic — 14 Jul 2015, 21:23

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T20:17:23+02:00

I'm not saying cybrans need a huge nerf, but the stupidity is in the fact that a t2 unit is cost effective vs it's t3 counter part, that's like if I gave ilshavohs stealth and took Omani out of the game, bricks and percivals would always lose to them, and it's the same deal here, the cybran t2 sub shouldn't be cost effective vs seraphim, it was never meant to be that way, cybrans are either supposed to beat seraphim early game or with harms. If you wanna talk hover remember they are probably gonna get A nerf due to all the whining, and what is hover supposed to do before the t3 shield? Or what about the fact that the cybran destroyer/mermaid combo beats it on big maps? And does this mean seraphim just shouldn't build much naval and should always use hover? Cause I can garuntee that is not how it is supposed to work :/ also what is hover to stop experimentals in the water? Or nuclear subs? Not only that it's barely cost effective vs cybran navy, I personally feel like it's all not working right

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 14 Jul 2015, 20:17

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T19:44:11+02:00

Issues with this include but are not limited to:
Seraphim shield doesn't work when assisting: battle ships, cruisers, destroyers etc without shiz loads of micro, the recharge rate is awful, it works well with hover but even then cybran gunships tear it up. Not to mension you need to build an entire separate factory, have loads of extra e, and in subhunter vs subhunter somehow be the God of all micro and even then I'm not sure it's cost effective

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 14 Jul 2015, 19:44

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T19:37:20+02:00

seraphim t3 shield on water >>> cybran

as seraphim i would complain mostly about the poor anti air of cruisers.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 14 Jul 2015, 19:37

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T19:33:49+02:00

Look at it like this:
Frigate: seraphimSub:seraphimDestroyer: seraphim>cybran
Cruiser: seraphimSera destroyerSeraphimt3 subhunter< cybran subhunter
Torpedo bombers: seraphimGunship: seraphimTorpedo defense structures: seraphimBattleship: seraphimCarrier: seraphim>cybran (although cybran wins in a fight)
Seraphim t1-t2 hover < cybran gunships
Seraphim t1-t3 hover: gunships(t2and t3) also counterable by microed destroyers
Seraphim water expSo and so fourth, I'll end it with this
Cybran subhunter>any seraphim naval unit except torpedo defense structures and torp bombers
Cybran destroyer> seraphim torpedo defense structures
And there are plenty of ways so counter torp bombers
See what I'm saying here?

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 14 Jul 2015, 19:33

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T19:10:39+02:00

lol your missing the point: nothing the seraphim have can counter cybran subs in a real life scenario

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 14 Jul 2015, 19:10

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-14T16:22:48+02:00

With sera you should build T3 land hover shields and hover units, along with T3 subs/battleships.

Statistics: Posted by Ionic — 14 Jul 2015, 16:22

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-13T19:08:19+02:00

Ugh, let me put this in to game terms:
T1: cybran and seraphim player both build maybe 3 naval factories, 2 spam frigates, 1 spams subs, cybran begins to push back seraphim because their t1 is better (if you want you can substitute a factory for some hover arty spam but that will end even worse
T2: alright, sera has a little disadvantage but now it has its destroyers, so it starts producing those, cybran also starts producing destroyers, so now let's say there is 6 cybran frigates left and 4 seraphim plus 2 destroyers on each side, with some excellent micro the seraphim player pulls out a win. Cybran player begins spamming t2 subs. The destroyers aren't cost effective so the seraphim player builds torp defense, which is immediately blown up by long range destroyers, alright fine, lets say somhow the seraphim player gets to t3 which is supposed to be the turning point, he somehow with out map control matches the cybran players spam only to start losing causing he can't see the subs until they are in range, he builds a cruiser but it gets killed by the destroyers over and over again. Basically unless the seraphim player has t3 air or some shiz like that he is just gonna keep getting beat down (and even then he lacks t3 gunships and his torp bomber sucks) so the seraphim player gets pushed back more, a few destroyers or bricks come on land and kill his acu
the end
This happens every time regardless of the scale, not to mention cybran battle ship is way more cost effective than seraphim. And on really open maps the cybrans kick out a mermaid or few and kill everything form long range (destroyers are safe and t3 subs are fine but everything else is doomed)
See? This is why the sub hunter needs a buff.
Also dont try to argue hover somehow try's to make up for this, it doesn't :p
Sorry if I'm coming across rude

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 13 Jul 2015, 19:08

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-13T17:08:34+02:00

The reason I feel cybran can be OP is because it has the best t1 navy and best t2 navy, it is superior in 2 tech levels right in a row, so it has plenty of opportunities to beat the enemy.Not trying to hate cybran s, I love them , but their early to mid game is so damn good and the late game isn't exactly weak
As for seraphim: fobo is awesome, don't get me wrong, but 1 frigate can easily kill 20 fobos with some micro
I get the destroyer is awesome with micro, but it's hard to micro more than 10 to any effectiveness
As for people who don't think the t3 sub needs a buff: enough coopers and shields boats render them entirely useless, I've already said why it's not an issue for cybran, and sera being able to beat aeon sub hunters is, well like a brick steam rolling hover, if your using hover against s brick or aeon subs against the seraphim you are doing something wrong, that's why they have the t3 torp bomber for that
I agree, uef late game is op

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 13 Jul 2015, 17:08

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-13T16:54:40+02:00

briang wrote:
Cybran navy needs 0 nerf IMO. UEF needs to start with a summit nerf and then move to bulwark too if it is still too good. Seraphim is second to UEF at T3 and IMO is just as good as other factions T2. The mass effect encyclopedia of the units is something you constantly touch on when it is something that is there for a reason... X Mass in T2 sub will always beat X mass of t3 sub if you just look at combined dps/health... you cannot just discount micro. ofc if you micro your t3 subs into range of t2 subs you deserve to have them all die horribly .

But you can't micro against a unit can't see, especially considering it is faster, scouts get raped by asf or cybran carrier and cruiser gets killed by the subs before it process good Intel sooo

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 13 Jul 2015, 16:54

Re: navy balance and hover

2015-07-13T15:42:23+02:00

It is.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 13 Jul 2015, 15:42