Forged Alliance Forever

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-30T20:58:44+02:00

Dont be afraid i am objektive i am just from time to time reminding if i see a detail since i only play uef i know them good. In this case i noticed you re right it might be to much and all the other weakness of uef is known like titan (i vote for adding the top rocket launcher back and increase dps in a way like mongoose has it). I am also telling people to reduce power of some units. I fully agree that percival might need a better balance. But there seems to be difficult to find the correct way. Also summit, no question. I told to add 1k e cost for every gun and maybe 500 e cost for other battleships. Omen 300 or even less. I always try to see the things in a way not to op some units.
Thats why i accepted in the end i see that 5 life could be a problem but at least a small toy would be nice and maybe a bit increased vision range of bullet cam would be fun

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 30 Jun 2015, 20:58

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-30T20:20:50+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Hey i have a suggestion which is very tiny. All t1 armies have some specials like:

Mantis - Speed & Assist (price)
Medusa - Stun & Splash (shit against building/good against T1/T2)
Aurora - Range & Hover (price)
Fervor - Damage & Precision (awsome against building, shit against unit)
Thaam - None
Zthuee - Strong Damage & Hover (price, good against building and unit)
Striker - 30Life
Lobo - health, good against building, decent against unit

i think you should stop pushing the faction that you are playing (uef) so much. You are not objective anymore

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 30 Jun 2015, 20:20

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-30T08:17:10+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Hey i have a suggestion which is very tiny. All t1 armies have some specials like:
[...]
Thaam - None
[...]

Statistics: Posted by --- — 30 Jun 2015, 08:17

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-30T08:06:31+02:00

Well ok Zock told he is against and mozart told me to stop this discussion until a balance patch is beeing planned
i think mozart might be right. I am a bit wondering that people estimate uef t1 to be so strong but either it is to boring that no higher level person is regulary playing them or their weakness is hidden very good.

of course i also noticed that uef t1 can be very powerful on small maps. but if the map is open and flat like a lot of maps you will suffer as uef if your enemy is good (1600+ ladder rating) because as i told mantis will run arround you and kill your mexes you cant hunt them. aurora will kite you thats no fun anymore since your tanks are slow. in lower rating range might be right if 2 armies are blind rushing into each other uef will win in most cases with striker. i had some nightmare events vs aurora playing uef. But i am still thinking how those 5 hp can be so imba. Even on small maps you cant do 50% mix arti and tanks. the difference would be just a few shots from enemy acu. Dont you think that a big medusa army is atm even stronger. Sera arti for example does very huge damage on acu, so you have to dance. uef has not this big damage but a bit more life will maybe force you also to dance and thats all?

so maybe the balance was not only my point it was more the list of features which is not really equal. uef t1 has no specials. that was a hidden special those 5 life. maybe there is another way to make it more interesting in a not harmful way. hover, stunn, increased range and built power are very nice toys in units. why not to give uef a harmless toy just to increase fun.

-> an example could be also to improve the lobo scout on bullet. increase the range of sight it grants to same that lobo has itself and increase a bit time.

All this story is about 1 fact, i have uef clan and i am wondering why there are nearly no uef only player in high rank. go to faf search replays 1700 rating and 1v1 and count the factions from people really over 1700 rating. tell me why there is hardly a single uef game and if you meet 1 there it was random player. what is the reason for this? the acu cant be the problem it s propably the best acu in the game except double ras. cybran is played average at least 1 in every game wtf is wrong there? watching the cybran goodie list in t1 units thats crazy what those units can do additional. and just the pure fighting values compared to uef are maybe in mantis a bit weaker than striker but medusa much better vs other units compared to lobo. maybe cybran is the wrong example ...

All i mentioned here thats things which are difficult to proove and/or not counted as serious facts. Since i dont play to much maybe i have a wrong view on the things. So i will be a bit more silent here and watch, most of the people seem to be against the 5 additional life.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 30 Jun 2015, 08:06

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-30T07:30:22+02:00

Eh? I dont really see UEF being that week at T1. Maybe not the strongest but certainly not crap.

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 30 Jun 2015, 07:30

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-30T01:58:49+02:00

yeager wrote:
Most players will consider uef the most OP right, and remember uef is god like mid- end game, they don't need good t1
Edit: don't forget hover is countered by the fact seraphim and aeon t1 navy is awful, you have to factor that in when you look at these things

However, at least in 1v1, T1 is the most important phase of the game.
Is the phase where you get map control, thus reclaim/mass spots, thus early eco advantage that snowballs in a much greater advantage as time goes on.

What use is a good T2 if you can't even get enough resources to reach it because the enemy's superior T1 allowed him to cap most mass spots, destroy engineers, build more units (cuz they are cheaper), raid your eco and, as result, be already building T2 while you struggle to get the HQ?

Tl;dr: Cybran rules, UEF go home

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 30 Jun 2015, 01:58

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T22:57:36+02:00

Mantis can capture buildings... If you make them assist and engie and make the engie capture something the mantis will help too

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 29 Jun 2015, 22:57

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T22:20:34+02:00

The 205 hp on top of the faster reload time would be likely op. It's either one of them, but probably not both. And in any case, it would have to be thoroughly tested on maps where artilleries+ACU fights are key like Winter Duel.

What Luxy probably means is that before, it was a very important advantange because t1 phase was extremely long. Now that the meta game has a more developed t2, which occurs sooner, lobo with 205 hp would maybe not be as big of a deal as before.

I personnally don't think the current lobo is weak per se and that this change is really needed. I don't think UEF t1 is weak except on maps with water like the wilderness, and in that situation, your lobo suggested buff doesn't help. The 205 hp / 10 secs reload would give a more old school flavour to the unit. However, I would be intested to know other top players' opinions about this if you get the chance to discuss it with them.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 29 Jun 2015, 22:20

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T15:58:52+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Hey i have a suggestion which is very tiny. All t1 armies have some specials like:

Mantis - Speed & Assist
Medusa - Stunn & Splash
Aurora - Range & Hover
Fervor - Damage & Precision
Thaam - None
Zthuee - Strong Damage & Hover
Striker - 30Life
Lobo - Sight

Atm for me it looks like UEF has problems vs others but thats not exactly the reason why i write this. Mantis is running striker tanks away and killing mex behind. Aurora is outranging striker meanwhile mantis is to fast and will overrun them. I think other factions have so good bonuses meanwhile the advantages of an uef army goes to nearly 0. In former times uef t1 Army had 1 also strong feature and i suggest to bring it back. I dont know why it was removed at all ...

-> Add 5 Life to lobo

Result should be that Lobo will survive 2 acu shots and you need 3 which makes uef t1 army mix a bit more effective against acu. That would be a bonus equivalent to Swimming t1 tanks and about cybran there is no discussion that they have enough of bonus. Seraphim t1 tank got nothing very likely because the arti is very strong. But lobo we cant call to strong. 5 additional life would make not much difference for t1 army fights but bring a small advantage vs enemy acu. Compared to those other especially t1 arti bonuses thats not to much demanded i think

Most players will consider uef the most OP right, and remember uef is god like mid- end game, they don't need good t1
Edit: don't forget hover is countered by the fact seraphim and aeon t1 navy is awful, you have to factor that in when you look at these things

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 29 Jun 2015, 15:58

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T14:11:13+02:00

Yes i noticed this change, that was needed because lobo was simply bad. But it doesnt give them something that really compensates the good advantages of other t1 factions like hover abilities and stunn. I would be really glad to hear those people you mentioned. I also thought that exactly those people can tell most about this story.

That nobody wanted to have it back maybe simply happens because nobody of top players likes to play uef so why to care about Sounds funny but this is fact that you can easily find top player cybran only. I am watching often 1v1 replays 1800+. But you will search very very long time to find 1 uef only player in high ranks. No idea about sera and aeon, for some time i ve seen some players playing often sera and aeon above 1800 rating in 1v1. TA4life for example was aeon for some time. But uef i really never have seen somebody who played more than 5 games uef in a row high rank 1v1. Maybe a 205 life lobo would make this possible

At least a discussion about this would be nice.

p.s. The leaderboards information about map statistics also show for a long time an under average win ratio for uef in not mirror games. And this is not only because i am playing so bad
(I asked luxy in chat and he told it would be fine to add the 5 life back again since the game has changed so much meanwhile it is no problem anymore. I try to interview more people. I have a copy of the chat with luxy in aeolus but i am not sure if i am allowed to post it here so i will not do it atm.)

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 29 Jun 2015, 14:11

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T14:00:19+02:00

It was OP for the precise reason you mention : against ACU. Even many top players said so, especially on some maps (Winter Duel for instance). If that change was a bad one, I guess the top players would have voiced it by now, and asked for a reversion.

It's probably possible to see the threads about it on GPGnet forum, or in an archive of it. Or ask Voodoo, Luxy, Zock etc about it.

In my opinion, lobo was not very good after losing these HP, and that's why I decreased their reload time in a previous balance patch.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 29 Jun 2015, 14:00

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T13:26:48+02:00

What exactly was the reason to be op? i never noticed this and also played gpg times. I cant imagine that 5 life can have so big effect since it only influences acu vs lobo. but you cant spam lobo anyways vs big enemy t1 armies ?!? Have i missed something? Uef t1 is not much fun atm i would say thats why i remembered this in general. Just watch medusa killing t2 tanks is that not imba?

Just to write it was gpg patch and imba is not enough Info and absolutely no reason against.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 29 Jun 2015, 13:26

Re: t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T13:22:23+02:00

Lobo had 5 more hp in the past, and they were OP, so it was changed by GPG (3603 or before).

Statistics: Posted by pip — 29 Jun 2015, 13:22

t1 armies -> Lobo

2015-06-29T13:09:30+02:00

Hey i have a suggestion which is very tiny. All t1 armies have some specials like:

Mantis - Speed & Assist
Medusa - Stunn & Splash
Aurora - Range & Hover
Fervor - Damage & Precision
Thaam - None
Zthuee - Strong Damage & Hover
Striker - 30Life
Lobo - Sight

Atm for me it looks like UEF has problems vs others but thats not exactly the reason why i write this. Mantis is running striker tanks away and killing mex behind. Aurora is outranging striker meanwhile mantis is to fast and will overrun them. I think other factions have so good bonuses meanwhile the advantages of an uef army goes to nearly 0. In former times uef t1 Army had 1 also strong feature and i suggest to bring it back. I dont know why it was removed at all ...

-> Add 5 Life to lobo

Result should be that Lobo will survive 2 acu shots and you need 3 which makes uef t1 army mix a bit more effective against acu. That would be a bonus equivalent to Swimming t1 tanks and about cybran there is no discussion that they have enough of bonus. Seraphim t1 tank got nothing very likely because the arti is very strong. But lobo we cant call to strong. 5 additional life would make not much difference for t1 army fights but bring a small advantage vs enemy acu. Compared to those other especially t1 arti bonuses thats not to much demanded i think

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 29 Jun 2015, 13:09