Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-08-01T21:28:30+02:00

Let's not turn this into a shitposting thread.

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 01 Aug 2016, 21:28

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-08-01T18:37:04+02:00

biass wrote:
mayas necroed and i made a more meaningful contribution in a sentence then you did in like 8/10 paragraphs

biass*

"those occasions" after that literally one time and i even said i cannot wait for you to gloat about it

ggwp

Not gloating, just explaining. If you don't understand then that is your loss.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 01 Aug 2016, 18:37

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-08-01T07:46:54+02:00

mayas necroed and i made a more meaningful contribution in a sentence then you did in like 8/10 paragraphs

biass*

"those occasions" after that literally one time and i even said i cannot wait for you to gloat about it

ggwp

Statistics: Posted by biass — 01 Aug 2016, 07:46

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-08-01T06:44:03+02:00

biass wrote:
Hawkei wrote:Stuff that will never be applied in game

nice

Masyaka, a t2 mex is only worth 2 extra t1 mexes, you might have one more t2 mex then your enemy but if he has the whole map and you're sitting in your base he has so much more eco then you it's not even funny

Nice necro Biass.

I don't see the need to comment on this thread. The conversation ended weeks ago, and you have failed to make any meaningful contribution.

As for the, "stuff that will never be applied in game", there are some players that do apply these things in real games - and myself in particular. Though, they don't normally think of it in those terms. Because it has become second nature - and when you understand my post then you will begin to understand my mental state and the reasons why I am able to beat you on those occasions when I have done so.

The most common reason why I am able to beat my opponents, even when put into a defensive footing, is because I have been able to get 'inside the head' of my opponent. When I read the intel, I can develop a mental picture of what the game will look like in 5 minutes time, and then deploy my often limited resources to directly counter that thread before the threat is manifest. Doing this often requires a strong game knowledge and is often also derived from observation of the player themselves. Every player has there own habits and idiosyncrasies - and when this intimate knowledge is known, can easily be exploited.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 01 Aug 2016, 06:44

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-08-01T05:59:44+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Stuff that will never be applied in game

nice

Masyaka, a t2 mex is only worth 2 extra t1 mexes, you might have one more t2 mex then your enemy but if he has the whole map and you're sitting in your base he has so much more eco then you it's not even funny

Statistics: Posted by biass — 01 Aug 2016, 05:59

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-07-31T15:31:53+02:00

Im opposite of your side, sit in my base and eco with enough resources.

Statistics: Posted by Masyaka — 31 Jul 2016, 15:31

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-06-16T20:18:12+02:00

Well yes I can try. In the context of what I was explaining earlier, being proactive doesn't just mean using intel to determine what a player is doing, but also what a player will do. It means reading a tactical situation and extrapolating what the opponent can do in what space of time, what they need in order to achieve that outcome, and how this can be denied. What kind of thread that posses and how to defeat it. In basic terms this means that not only should you be matching your opponent, but, you should be exceeding (and preferably) also countering them.

What you seem to be suggesting is that the initiative should be seized by a attacking first. Having a clear plan of attack, and launching it before an enemy attack can be launched. With the only hope being that you can strike so quickly that there is not time for the enemies adaptation. You are hoping that the action will be over so quickly that your plan does not require revision.

There is however another strategic concept which is central to taking initiative - and (in Chess terminology) this is called tempo. Tempo is defined as the speed at which an attacking formation can be reconfigured, or redirected. This may mean physical tempo - as in the ability to literally move your units and attack a different position. Or it could mean how quickly you can change from spam to tech, or tech to eco, etc. Or how quickly you can deal with emerging threats...

Now the idea of tempo, in a Chess game, manifests itself as the ability to efficiently move pieces around the board and shift your focus of attack. It is governed by efficiency of movement and good positioning. In Supreme Commander it is governed by having the flexibility in your force composition to deal with new threats - as well as the ability to shift your economy and utilise it in different ways.

Above all, in a game where there is the fog-of-war, intelligence plays a pivotal role in gaining tempo. Intelligence allows you to know at the earliest possible time when you have been countered, or when a new threat emerges. Thus, it is entirely possible to seize the initiative with a defensive play. Simply by using intelligence to accelerate your decision making cycle. If you can produce counters before your opponents threat even becomes manifest - then you will have gained an economic advantage and taken the initiative.

Basically, the way I play this game is the same way I play Chess. It is what I like to call the, "Blank Slate", strategy. 95% of the time I don't go into a game with any preconceived idea of what my strategy will be. My only plan is to win the intelligence war, learn what my opponent is doing, and counter it. Identify and probe weaknesses - with no clear goal in mind. Instead, my early attacks are executed randomly for small gains. With the sole aim of probing my enemies boundaries, thwarting his expansion, and generally throwing a lot of little attacks with a multitude of different threat types. Such that the opponent will become confused and aimless.

I do early LAB aggression, early bomber, small tank pushes, lock down with PD, build a TML and queue up targets. Put interceptor patrols in his face, do a run-by with T2 bots, shove some Janus down his throat, and drop some Lobo in his backyard... I am always making sure that I know more, see more, and try to have too many things going on for him to effectively deal with.

In military terms, this is what is known as the OODA loop. Observe, Orient, Decision-making, and Action. If your OODA loop is faster than your opponent you will be much more effective. It is pretty much "what is he doing, what does this mean, what do I need to do... and then execute"... Over and over and over. The faster you can make the happen, the more likely you are to take initiative, and hence, win games.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 16 Jun 2016, 20:18

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-06-16T18:31:30+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
...

Fair enough, but being that the OP's question has been answered (I gather this from the check mark next to the thread title), might you entertain me by providing advice for those of us looking to be proactive?

I could also start another thread, but it seems just as well to re-purpose this one.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 16 Jun 2016, 18:31

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-06-14T21:02:56+02:00

codepants wrote:
This seems reactive, not proactive.

I've noticed the winner is typically the one "in control" of the game AKA the one being proactive and forcing the other player to react.

I would love to see some advice along those lines...?

But to the point of the thread, which is Lichking's specific replay... yea, scout, build facs sooner, and if you can't defend your ACU don't send it up.

You are correct. However, reading the OP's gameplay description should give you an idea of where he's at. Being reactive is an improvement of being non-reactive and non-responsive. Obviously, being proactive and seizing the initiative are strong tactical virtues. But when done in complete ignorance of what your opponent is doing is just as likely to loose your games as it is to win them.

The two key teachings which I am attempting to make are:
1. To gather intel
2. To respond to that intel.

Which are based on the specific problems which the OP is encountering. Namely, being overly aggressive, not gathering intel, and getting caught in an unfavourable position, with insufficient forces, and getting killed. The basic problem here is the gathering of and responding to intel. As well as ( I suspect) Insufficient build power applied to the making of units necessary for his chosen tactic.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 14 Jun 2016, 21:02

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-06-14T20:37:27+02:00

Don't forget that for every expanding engineer it is -30 power per t1 mex being built, so you need a few extra t1 pgens at the start to prevent power stalling while fueling the factories. If you build air you need at least another 4...

Once you are done expanding, it's a whole different ballgame: do not build more t1 pgens unless you plan to get an ACU upgrade (altho this is a really commong path it isn't necessary), you want to rush tech 2 (-100e for the upgrading fact alone, without assist), or get t2 air where you will need TONs of t1 pgens or at least t2 power.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 14 Jun 2016, 20:37

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-06-14T19:40:48+02:00

being reactive is the way to play teamgame, or you have a real team set up and you go for a team strategy (eg : T1 land spam + com attack on canis). Most of the time, if you play teamgame like several 1v1 (and some help from time to time between player, like most of the time) then scouting and reacting is best way to go.

in 1v1 it's different, you have to fight with T1 a lot to gain map control, it's hard to have some time to analyse what your opponent is doing.

But in general being re-active is better than pro-active. (depends if you talk about dropping unit for exemple, and consider that being pro-active then yes being pro-active can be really rewarding, but i don't consider dropping like an overall strategy, more a tactical feature)

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 14 Jun 2016, 19:40

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-06-14T18:52:13+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
If you haven't scouted your enemies production capabilities always assume that you need full production in units. Then put some effort into finding out what their capabilities are. If he is going eco, you need to match. If he is teching, you need to match. If he is spamming, you need to match.

This seems reactive, not proactive.

I've noticed the winner is typically the one "in control" of the game AKA the one being proactive and forcing the other player to react.

I would love to see some advice along those lines...?

But to the point of the thread, which is Lichking's specific replay... yea, scout, build facs sooner, and if you can't defend your ACU don't send it up.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 14 Jun 2016, 18:52

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-05-27T12:42:37+02:00

1 lfac = 1pgen

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 27 May 2016, 12:42

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-05-27T15:12:14+02:00

LichKing2033 wrote:
Recently I had some battles where I died and my team lost because I overextended. I tend to overextend because, since I am not great at eco, I often lack resources and I expand to have more mexes. That leads to me not having factories, leading to me not having units, leading to me getting killed. What to do in this situation? How to eco better or manage the expansions better?

Aim to have enough land factories to completely consume your mass income - and then enough power, with only a minor surplus to keep everything running. I think, as a general rule, you should have 1 Land factory for every two T1 mexes under your control. To operate this land factory you need 2 or 3 T1 pgens.

If you haven't scouted your enemies production capabilities always assume that you need full production in units. Then put some effort into finding out what their capabilities are. If he is going eco, you need to match. If he is teching, you need to match. If he is spamming, you need to match. If you intend being defensive, and have enough units to hold, then go for eco, and shut down production... As you can see, bringing enough units to the fight is critical for success. Perhaps if you had better intel you could make better decisions.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 27 May 2016, 11:03

Re: Bite more than you can swallow

2016-05-27T03:44:11+02:00

Here is me dumping notes about the game onto a forum post:

at around 5 minutes, beast has 4 times the amount of land production then you, despite similar mass incomes , you have done an okay job of scouting his production but time will tell if you counter it

however, having "enough" buildpower to defend yourself is essential to survival (as i say this he now was 5 times as much)

i noticed that you have walked halfway across the map to make factories, the longer you walk, the longer time it takes to get units out, and the closer they get, the more you risk if your enemy has his up faster, try making your production closer to your base, or at least where you have plenty of buildpower

"how do you do this so quickly" is because he has not spent the whole time walking half map to start building, remember acu is one of the slowest units in game, the quicker you start, the quicker you finish, the quicker you have units, etc, time adds up

at min 7:30 lets count land factory numbers
beast: 7
u: 1

you're also overflowing mass and have idle engineers in your base, remember you only need 2 t1 engy's to have the same buildpower as your acu

try and think of your eco has having 3 points, not 2, if you dont have the buildpower to spend your mass = overflow, thats bad, if you have too much buildpower, you crash eco = also bad

and ur ded, gg

Statistics: Posted by biass — 27 May 2016, 03:44