Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-17T19:03:43+02:00

This is not only faction dependent but time, map and opponent dependent.

Time: Early game no point in building arty because the 1 tank you're against can dodge them. Just build straight tanks.
--> after ~4-5 min add 1 arty for every three tanks in case of pd, and there will be enough units that arty will be good against them.
--> after ~10-15 min keep building arty if combat is land-to-land, but if it's a pd creep switch to MML or go around the firebase with drops or something fast.

Map: Bumpy maps --> more arty.
Hydro --> easier to go first or early bomber (for both you and your opponent).
Reclaim --> early spam and/or air more likely.
No reclaim, few mexes --> every unit counts, build only exactly what you need, plan your upgrades carefully.
Lots of narrow passageways --> t2 pd much more effective. Use your ACU to block one path completely and send units up the others (one could write an essay on the different ways to use an ACU -- for build power or force? Which upgrades? When? Standing where? Against which factions?)
Fields --> t1 spam much more effective.
Lots of mountains --> drops, gunships and bombers much more effective.

Opponent: Lots of PD --> you make lots of arty.
Aeon spamming auroras --> rush t2 for range bots or go bomber spam.
Spams air --> go air yourself or include AA.

I don't think your mistake is that you don't know the "one thing" to do, I think it's that there isn't *one* thing. You have to adapt based on your and your opponent's factions, the size and components of the map, speed and duration of the game, the tactics you want to employ, and the tactics you want to counteract.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 17 May 2016, 19:03

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-13T16:08:17+02:00

If you are using Medusa in an army. Then you are using it for the stun ability, and not so much for it's damage dealing potential.

Nop, once late stage t1 is reached Medusa are incredibly useful because of the wide spread of their shells, something you can't do with fervors and lobos. Medusa stun is useful for t2.

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 13 May 2016, 16:08

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-13T06:56:02+02:00

angus000 wrote:
Wait, biass says cybran arty is good to have but not lobo, and hawkei says the opposite.

Aren't they equally shit at T1 stage? Lobo has poor fire rate but is good enough against pds, medusa dies 3 times before it can take a pd, but is better against spam, right?

Also medusa is good at t2.

If you are using Medusa in an army. Then you are using it for the stun ability, and not so much for it's damage dealing potential. Stun has a huge potential to effect the outcome of a battle, but, will always require other units to deal damage. Medusa are strictly a supporting unit.

The UEF lobo is heavily front loaded, which means it does a lot of damage in a single volley. Some people hate this, personally I love it. Lobo can OHK most other T1 tanks. So it is great for an opener when punishing un-microed units. The usual trick here is to halt the army, bring the artillery into range, send the first volley, wait for impact, and then engage with tank. The arty will usually account for their own number in tank kills (unless there is overkill) which gives you a more favourable engagement. With two armies in a standoff, it is also possible to feint attacks by moving the arty, sending a salvo, and then pulling back. In this situation you want high damage, and ROF is unimportant. The UEF Lobo performs this task exceptionally well.

angus000 wrote:
Hawkei: what if for air, 4 inties + scout + bomber?

This will give you too much bomber and is not a good idea. If you are using bomber, you don't want them randomly flying around on a search and destroy patrol - and you don't want a lot of them either. Sometimes I do include bombers, but, I do so VERY sparingly. 2 air scouts, 8 interceptor, 1 bomber. I only ever do this on big maps in a 1v1 - when my APM is in high demand. I will probably expect to loose some bomber in little skirmishes. But, if I'm doing this, I'm playing a macro game - and therefore don't mind loosing the odd unit. I always have most of my air force kept in reserve. The air patrols are primarily there as an early detection tool to stop things like sneak drops, proxy TML, and proxy base tactics.

Not only this, but in ground battles, it is amazing how many times players will ignore interceptors flying overhead - simply because they aren't shooting at them. But an interceptor patrol gives me excellent recon. I can achieve much better battles with my T1 tanks because I know where everything is. Knowledge is power... But if I also patrol with T1 bomber, he will be forced to get AA - and this will shut down my intel... So often including bomber is a disadvantage.

Even in the T3 air phase, I will still have an unassisted T1 air factory pumping air scouts and interceptors on this patrol route. They are vulnerable to ASF. If this happens I will loose some interceptor - but I will bait his ASF into an unfavourable engagement with my own ASF. So I keep T1 air on patrol. T3 air in reserve.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 13 May 2016, 06:56

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-13T04:08:43+02:00

briang wrote:
Just an FYI, this is a factory build queue. When I said you needed to focus on early build orders I mean first 20 structures and first 10 units out of your factory.

I know what this is. And I am looking precisely for a factory build queue. My starting BO looks OK, it is universal to all maps of a certain type.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 13 May 2016, 04:08

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-13T03:11:11+02:00

Just an FYI, this is a factory build queue. When I said you needed to focus on early build orders I mean first 20 structures and first 10 units out of your factory.

Statistics: Posted by briang — 13 May 2016, 03:11

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T23:57:18+02:00

keyser wrote:
usually scout don't rush forward in big army.
They do when you have a tank and a scout raiding, but for such situation you can use deselection ui mod, and make scout assist tank.
And how would I micro that? Scouts in one group, others in a different one? I use mostly ctrl-L to select all land because I need all I have for fighting in one place, usually.

wtf are you playing thermo ?

No, I concentrate all forces in one place because... blitzkrieg.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 12 May 2016, 23:57

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T23:12:10+02:00

usually scout don't rush forward in big army.
They do when you have a tank and a scout raiding, but for such situation you can use deselection ui mod, and make scout assist tank.

And how would I micro that? Scouts in one group, others in a different one? I use mostly ctrl-L to select all land because I need all I have for fighting in one place, usually.

wtf are you playing thermo ?

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 12 May 2016, 23:12

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T23:04:17+02:00

LichKing2033 wrote:
And how would I micro that? Scouts in one group, others in a different one? I use mostly ctrl-L to select all land because I need all I have for fighting in one place, usually.

Just dont send your units towards the enemy in a straight line, move them around trying to find the most favorable engagement.

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 12 May 2016, 23:04

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T22:25:16+02:00

angus000 wrote:
I usually go either

5 tanks 1 scout 1 arty
or
5 tanks 1 scout

and they do just fine. You dont really need MAA since inties are several times better; you might want to add them only if you dont go air factory.
Also, for aeon is better to make 3 tanks 1 scout since they REALLY need those scouts.

If your scouts are dying because they arrive earlier than your tanks, then you might want to recheck your micro.

And how would I micro that? Scouts in one group, others in a different one? I use mostly ctrl-L to select all land because I need all I have for fighting in one place, usually.

biass: Pillars, OK

Hawkei: what if for air, 4 inties + scout + bomber?

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 12 May 2016, 22:25

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T18:30:58+02:00

angus000 wrote:
Wait, biass says cybran arty is good to have but not lobo, and hawkei says the opposite.

Aren't they equally shit at T1 stage? Lobo has poor fire rate but is good enough against pds, medusa dies 3 times before it can take a pd, but is better against spam, right?

Also medusa is good at t2.

Well, maybe just because for vs buildings i rather have a fervor then a lobo

Statistics: Posted by biass — 12 May 2016, 18:30

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T17:56:23+02:00

There's 2 sides to Medusa. On one side they are bad against pds defended by an army, on the other you can just run them in if there are no units as they will stun the pd

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 12 May 2016, 17:56

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T17:10:56+02:00

Lobos are exceptional against bases. You want to include them in your army for runbys into enemy bases and such. Medusas are arguably the best or worse thing to mix into your army. Terrible at killing pds their firing randomness and stun effect in large numbers allow them to massively alter large battles at t1 and t2 stages.

Statistics: Posted by Astrofoo — 12 May 2016, 17:10

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T16:49:49+02:00

Wait, biass says cybran arty is good to have but not lobo, and hawkei says the opposite.

Aren't they equally shit at T1 stage? Lobo has poor fire rate but is good enough against pds, medusa dies 3 times before it can take a pd, but is better against spam, right?

Also medusa is good at t2.

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 12 May 2016, 16:49

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T14:26:47+02:00

This is strongly faction dependent. As has been said before, and generally depends on what you intend doing. Most players would suggest that an army should consist almost entirely of tanks. As these are your damage dealing units in army vs. army encounters. Generally, the T1 MAA is rather useless, and is a highly situational tool. It shouldn't be included in your spam BO unless you are facing dedicated air plays. Build T1 MAA only as required, and only in response to specific threats.

Including artillery will often allow you to break through T1 PD - and being held up by these is never a good thing. So I always ensure that my T1 armies always have at least one artillery. You should be mindful that too much artillery, with some factions, will weaken your army and should be avoided. Artillery should be minimised with Cybran and Aeon. UEF and Seraphim T1 arty perform acceptably well in front line combat, so they can be more liberally included with these factions.

An army should always have at least 1 or 2 scouts, as this is a vital tool when operating outside of radar coverage. Some armies are much more dependant on radar, such as the Aeon Aurora, or any of the artillery units. Even at T2 and T3 stages it is important to maintain T1 scouts in your army. Some of the direct fire tanks such as Strikers, Mantis, and Thaam can operate effectively without scouts. So they are not essential in these cases. Any raiding force will obviously need a scout to acquire targets.

My typical BO's
1st Factory - 3 eng, 2 LAB, 1 scout, 2 LAB 1 scout, 2 eng, 2 LAB, 1 scout, 2 LAB 1 scout, 2 tank, 2 eng, 2 tank, 2 eng...
T1 Land Spam - 1 scout, 5 tank, 1 arty
T1 Air Patrol Spam - 6 interceptor, 1 air scout
T2 Land Spam - 1 scout, 1 arty, 6 T2 tank, 1 T2 MAA, 1 T2 MML, 1 mobile shield, 1 Sparky (if UEF)

The mobility, ranged, and raiding units (such as LAB, T2 ranged bot, and Titan as UEF) should rarely be spammed into a main army. They should be build as required and operated as a smaller and separate fighting force. Using these units in your main army is highly situational.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 12 May 2016, 14:26

Re: Build Orders

2016-05-12T13:19:23+02:00

/me pokes lextoc

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 12 May 2016, 13:19