Forged Alliance Forever

Re: T3 Air

2014-02-09T00:22:11+02:00

Podromos, are you trolling or you want making ASF more OP and Strats UP, what make both IMBA

Statistics: Posted by Gerfand — 09 Feb 2014, 00:22

Re: T3 Air

2014-02-08T23:30:54+02:00

No?

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 08 Feb 2014, 23:30

Re: T3 Air

2014-02-08T18:30:17+02:00

Increase:
1. asf hp---> ~3000
2. asf speed--->~ 25-35

Change asf dps to around 300.
Change fire cycle of sams to 1/sec and increase their range to 80.
Decrease t2 shield hp to 5000 and t3 shield to 10000.
Decrease t2 pd dps to 70 and range to 30.

Decrease hp of strategic bombers to 2000 and their speed to 10.
Problem solved.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 08 Feb 2014, 18:30

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-28T22:06:40+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
OK, logic is sound, I just wondered. Why the FiringTolerance?

Higher firing tolerance means shots are triggered more easily, even if targets are not straight in line. Normally, lower firing tolerance means better accuracy. In the case of air units with 3 shots, it's ok if firing tolerance is 0, because it will have more attempts to shoot. However, with one shot per sec, if the asf misses his opportunity to shoot due to imperfect line of shot, it gives free escape to the target. Since ASF fly and turn very fast, it happened more often than not. In my test, it was clear Sera and Aeon ASF didn't shoot as much as UEF ones, despite having same rate of fire (1 per sec).
Besides, air units have huge hitboxes, so even if the shot is not perfectly aligned, it will most likely hit if it is fired. If it's not fired due to imperfect alignement, well, it won't hit for sure.
Now, all ASF have a firing tolerance of 2, because they shoot only once per second.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 28 Jan 2014, 22:06

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-28T20:43:55+02:00

OK, logic is sound, I just wondered. Why the FiringTolerance?

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 28 Jan 2014, 20:43

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-28T19:55:33+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
The logic behind the the projectile changes is to reduce the lag caused by large ASF engagements. Nobody yet knows, though, why you decided to alter the HP as well. Please explain.

Maybe you're not aware, but the projectile changes have a deep impact on balance. If I had only applied your changes, without any additional adjustments, it would have meant the death of Aeon and Sera t3 air. That's what happened in my tests.

UEF had then the best ASF, in all my tests (15+), because less shots for the others = more chances to miss or to shoot at a target that is already dead, and less chances to hit a target with colateral damages (that was the strength of Aeon and Sera ASF before). UEF ASF is the only one that was not nerfed by a projectile reduction, and for that reason along with better veterancy due to higher hp, it became clearly superior to the others. With these hp values, the gap is less pronounced, that's all. Don't forget UEF Broadswords got heavily buffed and Restorers were nerfed. UEF doesn't need to have a ASF significantly better than the others. If a faction were to deserve something special like a better ASF, it's the one without a t3 gunship, nor t3 transport, nor t3 torp bomber.

Lastly, ASF will be likely changed in next patch, this is just a transitory status.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 28 Jan 2014, 19:55

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-28T16:21:42+02:00

The logic behind the the projectile changes is to reduce the lag caused by large ASF engagements. Nobody yet knows, though, why you decided to alter the HP as well. Please explain.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 28 Jan 2014, 16:21

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-28T09:19:57+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
ASF HP changes... Made the UEF (Already the worst) even worse? What logic prompted these, everyone will be interested to find out.

The number of projectiles of Sera, Cybran and Aeon changed, you think they are the same units?

Statistics: Posted by pip — 28 Jan 2014, 09:19

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-28T02:29:03+02:00

ASF HP changes... Made the UEF (Already the worst) even worse? What logic prompted these, everyone will be interested to find out.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 28 Jan 2014, 02:29

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-20T01:28:28+02:00

Pip, can you cut Cybran ASF projectile count in half too? Their homing rockets are the worst offenders.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 20 Jan 2014, 01:28

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-17T13:24:53+02:00

Mycen wrote:
One question though: What do you mean when you say most planes are destroyed after the second or third missile? The missiles only do 200 dmg, right? All T3 planes have much more HP than that.

It was just a guess, a feeling. Because T3AA is, when they hit (and the plane isn't flying away) deadly.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 17 Jan 2014, 13:24

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-17T04:06:46+02:00

I think have the ability to make no fly zones but make them prohibitively expensive to maintain.

An idea would be T3 AA rapes planes but costs huge energy to fire... Or costs huge energy to make missiles but holds a store of missiles allowing you to prepay some of that energy cost.

Statistics: Posted by SomeoneAUS — 17 Jan 2014, 04:06

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-16T21:43:37+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
The ideas with the AA T2 flak are good. problem would be that the T3 bomber also would suffer.
but instead of giving him more HP, couldn't he fly higher?
the ASFs of course should fly so low that T2AA gets them hit, or at least the "blob" that follows the first planes, so it shoots behind the target, but hits the very next planes flollowing the leading planes.
the height difference from bottom to top could be:
T1, T2 and ASF, T3

Changing the altitudes of the various aircraft might work as well (or better, perhaps) than changing their HP. The only thing I'd like to avoid is a situation where T2 mobile AA is capable of easily damaging T3 bombers or fighters. The defining feature of T3 air is its mobility, and only being able to effectively counter T3 air with static structures is a big part of this - countering T3 air requires an investment, you cannot simply move your defenses wherever you need them from wherever you have them, nor can you simply retreat them in the face of an oncoming ground assault.

I'm not sure that, even with their higher speed, ASFs would be able to largely avoid T2 mobile flak if they are flying at the same altitude as T2 aircraft. They already only fly a little bit higher as it is, and do not avoid it entirely. Rather than lowering ASF altitude to match T2 planes, why not raise the T3 bomber altitude to that of Spy Planes?

rxnnxs wrote:
another thing is the static AAT3. the volley is not even doing the full damage because most planes are destroyed after the hit of the second or third missile.
then the reload time kicks in and the rest of the missile volley is destroyed and does not even explode.
it would be good if
A) the rest of the missiles seek another plane, or
B) the missile flies to the spot where the plane exploded and do their splash damage there or
C) all missiles right from the start aim at different targets or
D) the missiles fly faster and are shot in faster bursts and make less damage. therefore the next shot can aim a different target

Lots of people have brought up ideas about changing SAMs a little bit more, altering their fire cycle and such, which I think are good. But haven't we determined that A, B, and C are not possible? I like idea D, but we don't want the projectiles to be too fast - otherwise Spy Planes lose a great deal of their penetrative power, which makes late-game recon for non-Aeon/UEF factions that much more difficult.

One question though: What do you mean when you say most planes are destroyed after the second or third missile? The missiles only do 200 dmg, right? All T3 planes have much more HP than that.

ShadowKnight wrote:
You want to make T2 AA capable of countering ASFs, you want to make it so the more ASFs there are the better it counters them, and you want it to leave T3 Bombers alone such that one needs either SAMs or ASFs to stop them? OK...

T2 Mobile Flack - Leave this alone. Role: Counters T2 Gunships, T1 Bombers, Interceptors, T3 Gunships
T2 Fighter Bombers - Leave these alone. Role: Ground attack. Countered by Interceptors, other T2 Fighter Bombers, ASFs
T2 Static Flack - Begin with the current balance patch changes. Global buff (10% to DPS, +1AOE). Role: Counters all T1, T2 Gunships, T3 Gunships, severely damages large swarms of ASFs (Or T2 Fighter Bombers but these are seldom swarmed), leaves small numbers of ASFs less damaged (T2 Fighter Bombers too). Unable to counter T3 Bombers or T3 Scouts.
T3 Bombers - Flack which hits ASFs can hit these too. Drastically raise T3 Bomber HP. It doesn't matter how high we put it, ASFs (Their counter unit) and SAMs (The other counter) will always rip them to shreds.
T3 Scouts - These are now the only unit too fast to be hit by Flack. Countered by ASFs and SAMs.
SAMs - Role: Stopping continuous T3 Bomber bombardment and T3 Scouting, but not preventing it. Severely damaging ASFs, but doing minor damage to large swarms when compared to T2 Static Flack.

Describes what I was thinking nicely. If we could make it work using mostly altitude changes rather than HP changes, as rxnnxs suggested, that would be even better - less disruptive.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 16 Jan 2014, 21:43

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-16T18:59:55+02:00

The ideas with the AA T2 flak are good. problem would be that the T3 bomber also would suffer.
but instead of giving him more HP, couldn't he fly higher?
the ASFs of course should fly so low that T2AA gets them hit, or at least the "blob" that follows the first planes, so it shoots behind the target, but hits the very next planes flollowing the leading planes.
the height difference from bottom to top could be:
T1, T2 and ASF, T3

what about switching the weaponry from T3 to T1 and vice cersa?
The inties get the rockets, the ASF get the front loaded guns (at least this would fit for the cybran).
The inties have this way also an AreaOfEffect-Weapon, the ASFs just an instant impact hit weapon.
the inties can therefore also shoot in all directions (missiles), the ASFs have to position themself and have a longer flight path for the attack move.
If Inties fire in a blob of AFs, that would teach them (splash damage).. Also the blob is then breaking apart for the attack move they need to shoot at the intie(s).. Nonetheless that would be nice dogfights, where the ASF with his top speed would be able to run out the missile, but when kept in the fight, he would also get damage. Inties would lose, but also could microed and taken home to a safe spot or they fly to a safe AA battery on the ground..
In general i am talking about the mod, funkoff already made and is talking about at page 31...
its just a little different with the missiles described and thought out in this case here

another thing is the static AAT3. the volley is not even doing the full damage because most planes are destroyed after the hit of the second or third missile.
then the reload time kicks in and the rest of the missile volley is destroyed and does not even explode.
it would be good if
A) the rest of the missiles seek another plane, or
B) the missile flies to the spot where the plane exploded and do their splash damage there or
C) all missiles right from the start aim at different targets or
D) the missiles fly faster and are shot in faster bursts and make less damage. therefore the next shot can aim a different target

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 16 Jan 2014, 18:59

Re: T3 Air

2014-01-16T10:53:21+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
errorblankfield wrote:Simple and works in my head. Tear it apart.

Your idea doesn't solve the problem of the snow-balling effect of ASF swarms. Even if asfs could shoot in all directions, 100 would still beat 50, and probably have 75 left. (Try it with T1 tanks... they can shoot in all direction too)

Also, here's an idea... why are we treating ASFs as all the same? Why not make them different?
-UEF: Keep DPS the same, make it fire single, high-damage shots (2000 apiece)
-Aeon: Keep the DPS the same, make it fire single, high-damage homing missiles, up to 90 degrees off the nose (3000 damage apiece)
-Cybran: Same everything, but it can shoot in all directions (180 degrees off the nose)
-Seraphim: +20% more health (because seraphim always get the shaft by tradition)
-All: increase cost back to 400 mass

With these changes, I'd expect UEF to be the best vs other ASFs, Aeon to be the best against T3/T4 gunships/bombers, cybran would be the best at killing T1, and seraphim would be a generalist the worst at nothing.

Wasn't aiming to solve snowballing. I've though of giving AoE to T2 for that, but that's a separate tangent.

The firing all directions was meant to remove the very high mirco advantage. Where 100 can beat 120 without thought. More if you are pushing it, but the point is the same.
Also removes the BS lower teir 'can't hit me' intis that kill a lot more than their fair share.

And your separate ideas:

UEF- OHKOing but no tracking means you basically have a sniper. ASFs are nice and agile so the chance for missing and having a plummeted DPS is rather high. Unless we make muzzle velocity really high but okay. Slow RoF to maintain DPS
Aeon - Stealing cybran tech with the tracking (boo!), OHKO + 50% overkill. Fires even slower but tracking. Tracking snipers?
Cybran - Shooting in all directions Yay! And by comparison highest rate of fire, tracking, can't be mirco'ed against, stealth...
Sera- Extra health helps vs UEF's new alpha strikes. Huge improvement as it takes two long reloads for a kill, but otherwise not a big deal.

So UEF and Aeon lose all the time to Cybran. Sera is viable if going against UEF but again, Cybran can do it all at this point.
o.0

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 16 Jan 2014, 10:53