Forged Alliance Forever

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-07-04T20:04:40+02:00

I think Firewall rather adroitly explained why your homing missile idea is not a good one, but as far as my point...

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Mycen wrote:And for that matter, why wouldn't the Serpentine, Silencer, and Torrent get homing missile options too? It's all the same weapon...

No, where you see that in my suggestion? I talk only about sera/aeon mml, not serpentine, serpentine take diferent dmg like mml, you think thats same wepon ? 6000 vs 600 vs 800 ?

Yes, they have different amounts of damage (because they are on different platforms) but they are the same weapon, they are all cruise missiles.

Part of what makes games like this straightforward to play is that across unit classes weapons all behave the same way. I know that if I have a striker, a pillar, a triad, a valiant, a summit, or a fatboy, they all have gauss cannons, and so they all will fire a projectile with moderate damage in a low arc. I can tell this just by looking at the weapon and what it shoots out. I don't need to remember that the pillar and triad will shoot out straight, but the summit's shells will zigzag to track its target.

Regularity of behavior within weapon types is a good thing, not something to be discarded because you want units to be given new and inappropriate roles. There are not unit upgrades in supcom to keep the focus on commanding armies rather than individual units. There are not (with a few noteworthy exceptions) varying fire modes for the same reason.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 04 Jul 2013, 20:04

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-07-04T02:59:43+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Firewall wrote: Suggesting balance changes is really the domain of more experienced players. First learn how to use your units to their maximum potential. Then talk about balance.

4years playing supcom, 1950 rating in GPG nick: Fhobos_EZ, you can be sure that i know units and they position.

Fine. I respect that you have some experience. But you seem to be discarding a whole faction wholesale. When really Aeon do have some good units. The great thing about Aeon is that everything works well, in its intended role. But they are in some respects vunerable when it comes to frontline combat. So Aeon strategy needs to adapt. You can't expect to steamroll with Aeon, like you do with UEF or Cybran. It requires a different game style.

^^ You should watch the replay I linked the the previous comment. That should give you some idea.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jul 2013, 02:59

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-07-04T01:12:46+02:00

Firewall wrote:
Suggesting balance changes is really the domain of more experienced players. First learn how to use your units to their maximum potential. Then talk about balance.

4years playing supcom, 1950 rating in GPG nick: Fhobos_EZ, you can be sure that i know units and they position.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 04 Jul 2013, 01:12

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-07-01T04:26:46+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Firewall wrote:Mobile flak do cost 160 mass, but they are also slower and can only be in 1 place at any time.

flask is mobile, can be on more like one place, when you has 2 on 10 range bot and deciever you do nothing by air, try it. its veri trycky and risky usee 300mass cost mercie against army with flak, it will be useble, but almost situation you fail, and when he take interceptor under his company you are out of bisnis. acu with sensor is effective, but you has one acu and when die you faild, its again risky, Risky mouve cant be counter on unrisky enemy. what you see bad about my solusion ?

What I see bad about your solution is taking a unit that is supposed to be a missile artillery, and turning it into something which it is not. An anti-unit system. If the MML has tracking missiles, it will be an "anti-everything" weapon.

During recent 1v1 ladder experience, I have played these very scenarios which you are talking about. I could point you to some replays. The trick to defeating the T2 bot is understanding its weaknesses. Which are these:
1. It needs radar or intel coverage to use its full weapons range;
2. It has light armour and needs to keep range;
3. It moves faster than most other units.

Point 3, moving faster, is normally considered and advantage. But consider this: If the T2 bot is not escorted by flak, it is vunerable to air. But if it is escorted by flak, then when it runs away, the flak will not be able to keep up... I used exactly this strategy, in a replayhttp://faforever.com/faf/vault/replay_vault/replay.php?id=1060977. Essentially, what I did was create a "Checkmate" scenario. When he didn't bring flak with him, I punished him with Spectre gunships and T1 bombers. But when he did bring flak, he inavertently tied his army to slower moving units. Units, which I could overpower with faster moving T1 spam.

There is another replay, where I fight T2 Cybran bots, with T3 Aeon snipers. (Link when I find it). In this, you will see just how vunerable T2 bots are - and how effective sniper bots can be. Yes the T3 factory is expensive. But 4 snipers can defeat any number of T2 bots. It is a fixed cost investment.

The point is: T2 bots pose a credible threat. But the Aeon and the Seraphim have many good units. Suggesting balance changes is really the domain of more experienced players. First learn how to use your units to their maximum potential. Then talk about balance.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 01 Jul 2013, 04:26

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-28T11:38:01+02:00

Firewall wrote:
Mobile flak do cost 160 mass, but they are also slower and can only be in 1 place at any time.

flask is mobile, can be on more like one place, when you has 2 on 10 range bot and deciever you do nothing by air, try it. its veri trycky and risky usee 300mass cost mercie against army with flak, it will be useble, but almost situation you fail, and when he take interceptor under his company you are out of bisnis. acu with sensor is effective, but you has one acu and when die you faild, its again risky, Risky mouve cant be counter on unrisky enemy. what you see bad about my solusion ?

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 28 Jun 2013, 11:38

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-28T07:34:24+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
mobile flak cost 160 mass, 2 mobile flak (price of 1.5 gunship) ruin your "air counter" and dont do nothing from air, then you can try stop it only by T2 PD, what cost mass. and when he has deciver, T2 PD dont stop it. And thats real problem, then you must send every second scout throught him, what cost cca 40 mass /2second, so you lose 20mass per sec, only for defending your turet and dont be defeating. When him map control and mass income rise you need spend 20/sec only for living in cave.

Mobile flak do cost 160 mass, but they are also slower and can only be in 1 place at any time. The simple answer is that you strike where the flak is not. Or don't leave your gunships there long enough to get killed by flak. This is usually enough time to kill scouts and radar, impreparation for Mercy strikes.

You will also note that I also recommended Mercies. Depending on radar coverage and the proximity of the flak, a mercy can strike before being intercepted. Without radar, the flak itself could be hit by Mercy. Mercies do area damage sufficient to destroy any T2 unit in an area. A Mercy can usually kill 3 T2 units, because of the area damage.

If you fight a Cybran, and they use stealth generators, the Aeon commander has a sensor range upgrade, which will give you Omni sensing. This upgrade is useful vs Cybran. Otherwise scouting is necessary. Preferably you should use air scouts. Yes! you might loose some, but so what? The damage you do to them will be far worse! Also, if you are sera, you can put scouts on the perimeter and hold fire. They can't be seen, and they will counter the stealth gen. STOP BEING SO DARN NEGATIVE! If all you see are problems, you will never find solutions.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Firewall wrote: You should also anticipate the siduation by getting range gun on the ACU.
this dont help serafins, and its not so easy, range gun ubgrade is 35 range. hoplite 37, and hoplite is 2.2x faster, it need tricky you will hurt them back but only for while, and are back when you lose 50% hp (sield help you, but it cost 440 mass, for one + 400+500 mass for gun, to while def 1000 mass for 5 hoplite who will ruin your game. when they go with acu too, what you do? Go on T3 you cant, you dont has enoght mass becase hes has map control. Its veri ridiculous situation, 3x defeat on it, and think that again starp play cybran primari for this hoplite deciever combo.

The Seraphim ACU also has a gun upgrade, which should be sufficient to deal with T2 bots... All ACU's are capable of dealing with T2 bots. With the combination of a Gun upgrade and overcharge cannon. Seriously, use your ACU and that will solve 99% of your T2 bot problems.

If he brings his ACU into the battle, this is to his disadvantage. You should have your own T2 Bots, the Illshavoh. They have less range and speed but more HP. If you run straight at his ACU with your ACU and T2 bots, this will put HIM in a bad position. His ACU is too slow. If he runs away with the Hopplite, his ACU will die. If he supports his ACU with the hopplites, the hopplites will die. This is a bad position for him.

"To play like a seraphim, you need to think like a seraphim"... Seraphim = Short range + High damage + High HP. Seraphim like to get close and personal. They like to "steam-roll". Being seraphim means getting lots of units and throwing them at your enemy. You do not care whether they run or fight. You just keep going. You need to have no mercy, and be willing to loose units. Seraphim are agressive. You need to think agressive.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 28 Jun 2013, 07:34

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-28T02:11:51+02:00

Kurbain wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with giving the MML homing missiles as long as the DPS and range get decreased to similiar levels as the mongoose/hoplite in homing missile firing mode.

I got ideal solusion. When its extremly hard, make misile firing randomnes, that i invite way how make it better; take eversong and Ithisah in homing mode, firing delay, like has obsidian. Obsidian has in past (and hope only in past) 0.4sec delay when charge fire, on that time he calcul next position of enemy. And projectil come on that position, when enemy change trajectory, then obsis miss, because taht charge delay is engyne bug. When we take MML in homing mode 2x more range like has obsis (40) and this missile has muzzle velocity 10X slower (3) then charge delay 0.1 sec would make that will be extremli easy with micro dodge eversong/ithasis mirco, but it would need some micro. That make counter, who would be counteret with enemy micro. This mml has similar dmg like holite 45 vs 60, hass similar HP (450/550 - 700/750) and are slower by 9 = more volunter. This would be easy to code (only bring charge delay to wepon, take homing and change mod toggle) Efective, but not OP and not efective against micro. And fresh.

Mycen wrote:
Why would Aeon missiles get homing when none of the other factions' missiles do? They're just extra special?.

Mycen read better, topick name is Eversong + Ithisah, ithisah is Seraphin fraction, and thats becase they has same problem with hoplite/mongoose.

Mycen wrote:
And for that matter, why wouldn't the Serpentine, Silencer, and Torrent get homing missile options too? It's all the same weapon...

No, where you see that in my suggestion? I talk only about sera/aeon mml, not serpentine, serpentine take diferent dmg like mml, you think thats same wepon ? 6000 vs 600 vs 800 ?

Firewall wrote:
Also, consider that much of the Aeon strength is in the air. You can counter Cybran/UEF T2 land with Aeon T2 air. Gunships work well till they get flak.

mobile flak cost 160 mass, 2 mobile flak (price of 1.5 gunship) ruin your "air counter" and dont do nothing from air, then you can try stop it only by T2 PD, what cost mass. and when he has deciver, T2 PD dont stop it. And thats real problem, then you must send every second scout throught him, what cost cca 40 mass /2second, so you lose 20mass per sec, only for defending your turet and dont be defeating. When him map control and mass income rise you need spend 20/sec only for living in cave.

Firewall wrote:
You should also anticipate the siduation by getting range gun on the ACU.

this dont help serafins, and its not so easy, range gun ubgrade is 35 range. hoplite 37, and hoplite is 2.2x faster, it need tricky you will hurt them back but only for while, and are back when you lose 50% hp (sield help you, but it cost 440 mass, for one + 400+500 mass for gun, to while def 1000 mass for 5 hoplite who will ruin your game. when they go with acu too, what you do? Go on T3 you cant, you dont has enoght mass becase hes has map control. Its veri ridiculous situation, 3x defeat on it, and think that again starp play cybran primari for this hoplite deciever combo.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 28 Jun 2013, 02:11

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-27T03:45:29+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
I play many game when can do nothing against hoplite spamm. Only chance was try to go on T3 but then i lose map control and enemy has so many hoplite that i can beat them with T3too ther are extremly effective. I try beat them by Blaze (what wana be counter) but take 0dmg on microed hoplite. and blaze cost more

Going for early T3 land as Aeon should be a considered part of your strategy. I have only rarely faced T2 bot spam at my level of play, and have hardly found it a problem to deal with.

I also suspect that you are being too timid with your forces. As Aeon your units are weak, but, they still do high damage. If your range advantage is compromised, and you have no Asylums, you need to throw your units straight in. T2 bots don't last long at close range. Their turret speed is too slow and their reload times are too long. They can kite, to keep range. But if they do, pull your forces back to a position defended with T2 PD.

Also, consider that much of the Aeon strength is in the air. You can counter Cybran/UEF T2 land with Aeon T2 air. Gunships work well till they get flak. Also, if the bots are clustered Mercy attacks can be economically viable, even when they do have flak. As long as you take out 2 or 3. this of course will be terribly frustrating, and most players go crazy when they see Mercies. Hopefully, directing your opponents attention to the air game will give you time to get T3 land. You should also anticipate the siduation by getting range gun on the ACU.

All these are admittedly stop gap measures. However, you have some hard counters in T3. Restorer gunships, Sniper bots, Harbringers and Serenty. All of which are deadly to T2 bots. A good progression rate to T3 should reduce the window of effectivness. Aeon T3 is so good vs lower tech, that you will not want to be without it for long.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 27 Jun 2013, 03:45

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-27T00:48:51+02:00

Why would Aeon missiles get homing when none of the other factions' missiles do? They're just extra special? And for that matter, why wouldn't the Serpentine, Silencer, and Torrent get homing missile options too? It's all the same weapon...

That just seems dumb. Is it really necessary for Aeon to have a specific counter to rangebots? Isn't that why their other T2 is being buffed? Do we have to make everything a game of rock/paper/scissors?

I like the idea about increasing their missile speed though, that makes sense.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 27 Jun 2013, 00:48

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-27T00:06:35+02:00

I don't see anything wrong with giving the MML homing missiles as long as the DPS and range get decreased to similiar levels as the mongoose/hoplite in homing missile firing mode.

Statistics: Posted by Kurbain — 27 Jun 2013, 00:06

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-26T10:53:05+02:00

rootbeer23 wrote:
dont spam my game forum with your hardon for the military.

MML's are awesome, one of my favorite units in the game. If you guys want homing missiles then they must move really really slowly and have a lengthy deploy time.

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 26 Jun 2013, 10:53

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-26T10:10:21+02:00

dont spam my game forum with your hardon for the military.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 26 Jun 2013, 10:10

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-26T09:05:17+02:00

object

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 26 Jun 2013, 09:05

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-26T01:50:35+02:00

Anaryl wrote:
But nevertheless the Evensong needs a buff.

I assure you, there is very little effective difference between the none-viper MMLs. Any perceived difference in performance is likely wholly imaginary.

high damage low rate of fire is certainly a disadvantage for missiles. assuming that a TMD can neutralize all MML projectiles in 1 shot.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 26 Jun 2013, 01:50

Re: MML Eversong + Ithisah: hoplite/mongoose counter

2013-06-26T01:40:27+02:00

But nevertheless the Evensong needs a buff.

I assure you, there is very little effective difference between the none-viper MMLs. Any perceived difference in performance is likely wholly imaginary.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 26 Jun 2013, 01:40