Forged Alliance Forever

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-11T08:19:11+02:00

HI,

I play Aeon, and I use LAB's in with my regular army spam. For the following reasons:

1. They are useful for breaking off and killing individual mexes and engineers. In need to keep my Aurora together, so little expendable squads of LAB do nicely for mopping up, or run-bys.
2. Their shorter firing range means you have an inner firing line, which kills only those tanks that come into range.
3. The Aurora are tin foil units, and I find that tanks will sometimes retarget LAB's in favour of the Aurora. If a tank is within range of my Aurora - I would rather it target LAB's - which can dance.
4. If I give a move/attack command, the Flares run ahead, to act as scouts. That way, I have time to pull the Aurora back. They've actually "saved my bacon" a couple of times In that siduation, I can have them dance, while a couple of Aurora sit back and snipe... Usually, they don't know they're loosing, till they're dead.
5. They are useful for bumping a retreating ACU. Because, Aurora like to stay at maximum range. I like to send the LAB's in instead.

They are good for the initial raids. However, the are less effective then they used to be. In 3599 my micro was good enough to kill several tanks with 2 (or even 1) LAB. But I have noticed in FAF, that my job is now a lot harder. I can still kill a tank class unit, with LAB, but I don't always have 100% success. If anything, I would suggest a slight increase in DPS, and reduction in build time. I'd actually like to see LAB's as a counter unit for Percies But they don't really have enough DPS. I'd like to see a bit more.

***

Reading through everything. Yes, I agree LAB's are terribly underpowered. They are still useful in the mid to late game. But they would be more useful if they could do more damage.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 11 Jun 2013, 08:19

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-10T09:16:24+02:00

I definitely agree with what Cerberus13 said.
I don't think that LAB's need a boost in vision. The idea that you either send a scout after them or you're running blind into enemy territory, hoping for the best, is to me part of the early game. It's a tradeoff. And I certainly don't think that a lab should be able to outrun the first few solid units on the field because that'd allow him to slip behind the lines and kill engineers in the main base.

Statistics: Posted by Kamicase — 10 Jun 2013, 09:16

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-08T15:11:51+02:00

Ato0theJ wrote:
I think the only buff that wouldn't put labs at a disadvantage would be acceleration, and turn speed buff. Both of which annoy just as much playing as seraphim as any other faction. The combat scout should be even more agile than the labs and equal to that of a snoop or spirit with the benefits being made up for the already higher mass cost. Though this might not be enough of a buff to make it a big disadvantage to seraphim.

What about build times? This has been suggested a lot in this thread. It doesn't make sense for a lab to take as long to build as a tank. I would suggest nerfing the build times to 65 - 85% of what they are now. Since this is a raiding unit, this will help it beging raiding faster. The other thing that might help would be to give it a greater vision range (to help it spot engies).

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 08 Jun 2013, 15:11

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-08T05:11:08+02:00

Cerberus13 wrote:
Yay sera labs!
TBH, I dont see the point in buffing LABs, they are meant to run around tanks and kill engis, not kill tanks. Its like complaining that my two T3 UEF titans lose to a Percival in a fight. One is meant to raid, and one is meant to fight. You don't raid with Percivals and you don't lead attacks with titans. Just like you don't lead attacks with LAB's while raiding with tanks. It has its roll, and it fits it very well. Further buffing it Nerfs Sera significantly while expanding it to a roll it doesn't need.

I think the only buff that wouldn't put labs at a disadvantage would be acceleration, and turn speed buff. Both of which annoy just as much playing as seraphim as any other faction. The combat scout should be even more agile than the labs and equal to that of a snoop or spirit with the benefits being made up for the already higher mass cost. Though this might not be enough of a buff to make it a big disadvantage to seraphim.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 08 Jun 2013, 05:11

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-08T01:46:33+02:00

Yay sera labs!
TBH, I dont see the point in buffing LABs, they are meant to run around tanks and kill engis, not kill tanks. Its like complaining that my two T3 UEF titans lose to a Percival in a fight. One is meant to raid, and one is meant to fight. You don't raid with Percivals and you don't lead attacks with titans. Just like you don't lead attacks with LAB's while raiding with tanks. It has its roll, and it fits it very well. Further buffing it Nerfs Sera significantly while expanding it to a roll it doesn't need.

Statistics: Posted by Tex — 08 Jun 2013, 01:46

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-07T10:09:53+02:00

they are underpowered.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 07 Jun 2013, 10:09

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-07T07:51:49+02:00

Golol wrote:
micro possibilities for labs shouldnt be too high
you cant clunter mirco. if an engi is protected by a tank the tank shouls always kill a lab.
the micro could make it survive a bjt longer but not long enough to kill a tank. that would be bad for gameplay imo

I would just like them to be able to consistently kill tanks 2v1 when micro'd. I agree, one lab should not be able to kill a tank.

Buff hp does nothing IMO, we don't want large armies of labs, they are a raiding unit.

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 07 Jun 2013, 07:51

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-07T07:00:12+02:00

micro possibilities for labs shouldnt be too high
you cant clunter mirco. if an engi is protected by a tank the tank shouls always kill a lab.
the micro could make it survive a bjt longer but not long enough to kill a tank. that would be bad for gameplay imo

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 07 Jun 2013, 07:00

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-07T03:24:40+02:00

ShadowKnight wrote:
Regarding that last sentence, it wouldn't demand more micro, it would simply mean that when you are going to micro anyway, the micro is more effective. Might mean an intensely microed LAB has a chance against a tank, which is the way the rest of the game is, so... Personally I don't care either way, but I see no way this kind of change will impact on the game as a whole, so why not?

Why would turn rate make a difference, the LAB can already turn fast enough to dodge shots. I don't think we should propagate ineffective changes simply because "why not?" - we've had far too much of that.

The only thing that will give a LAB a chance versus any significant number of tanks is more HP and more range. As it stands tanks massacre LABs > I was testing this out and mucking around in game a week ago. Even in far superior numerical terms, LABs just fail versus both T1 AA and t1 tanks.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheVaultbook/files/ replays 958585 (The board's attachment quote has been reached, so I whipped this up)

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 07 Jun 2013, 03:24

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-07T00:54:44+02:00

Regarding that last sentence, it wouldn't demand more micro, it would simply mean that when you are going to micro anyway, the micro is more effective. Might mean an intensely microed LAB has a chance against a tank, which is the way the rest of the game is, so... Personally I don't care either way, but I see no way this kind of change will impact on the game as a whole, so why not?

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 07 Jun 2013, 00:54

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-07T00:08:29+02:00

pip wrote:
Anaryl wrote:
What Anaryl suggested would make them replace tanks in early games and reduce auroras to a joke, and seraphim as well.

Please support/demonstrate your assertion.

Faster units and longer range with also good HP will turn labs into t1 hoplites, except that they will be much cheaper compared to tanks.

That's an opinion, not a very a good one. Nobody is suggesting putting rockets on LABs. That said, nobody is arguing at the moment that hoplites shouldn't be able to kite tanks, so in essence you're supporting my point. by supplying precedent.

RE: Increasing the mobility of the LAB - 4 is the fastest speed of any land unit iirc, going faster than this and we would begin to violate the consistency of FAs physics. Also increasing turn rate, what would that do? The LAB doesn't need to cost more micro (it's probably the most micro-intensive unit in the game, already)

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 07 Jun 2013, 00:08

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-06T17:56:18+02:00

Nombringer wrote:
Increase turn rate and turret turn rate.

All you need to do to buff when micro'd

TurnRadius would be good too, it allows them to turn in a tighter arc.

For the Mechmarine I quickly tried:

MaxSteerForce = 9 (From 7)
TurnRadius = 0.7 (From 1)
TurnRate = 63 (From 45)
FiringTolerance = 1 (From 2)
TurretYawSpeed = 270 (From 180)

Returned nice results IMO.

Setting StandUpright to false was bloody hilarious too

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 06 Jun 2013, 17:56

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-06T17:23:03+02:00

dstojkov wrote:
Hi,

I my mod I rework all land unit physics and the lab is no exceptions. Take a look. He is pretty strong so that with micro you can take down a tank or even more if your opponent let you the luxury to micro.

Often in early stage i build 3 of them plus a scout to snipe out the early eng + the tanks that were supposed to protect it

Read. The rules. This isn't a place to advertise. Unless your suggesting we change land unit physics.

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 06 Jun 2013, 17:23

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-06T16:53:04+02:00

Hi,

I my mod I rework all land unit physics and the lab is no exceptions. Take a look. He is pretty strong so that with micro you can take down a tank or even more if your opponent let you the luxury to micro.

Often in early stage i build 3 of them plus a scout to snipe out the early eng + the tanks that were supposed to protect it

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 06 Jun 2013, 16:53

Re: LABs are demonstrably UP

2013-06-06T16:40:29+02:00

Increase turn rate and turret turn rate.

All you need to do to buff when micro'd

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 06 Jun 2013, 16:40