Forged Alliance Forever

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-24T08:35:58+02:00

Cybran telemazor is an amazing tool, but far from unstoppable, a t3 nano phim com, t3 double shield aeon or uef com among with a large number of t1 PD or a horde of percies/snipers would easily stand up against telecom. A t3 cybran com can laugh off an attack if he has some defenses and the laser himself. Far from being of game ender status IMO.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 24 Jun 2013, 08:35

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-24T07:32:31+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Alright, that's actually a good point. A legit game ender should, by definition, threaten the whole map. Not having a unit that can do that, Cybran is without a game ender.

Exactly. I feel like a true game-ending unit should allow a player to threaten and/or destroy his opponent's economy without having to move from a defensive position on any map. They are meant to be 'economic victories' so to speak. (As in, even without tactics and micro, once you build one, your victory is only a matter of time and making sure it doesn't get blown up.)

ShadowKnight wrote:
Wrong.

Well please, enlighten us then. What does define a "game-ender"?

ShadowKnight wrote:
The Mavor is incredibly easy to defend against, especially for its mass cost, even if you mix in half a dozen Novax. It does not threaten the whole map, because it threatens nothing. The UEF's Game Ender is currrently the Novax, which is dozens of times more powerful than its own mass in Mavors.

You're quite correct that the Novax is far more useful than the Mavor right now, that's (sadly) indisputable. But that's only a matter of balancing and tweaking. The issue there is merely returning the Mavor to its pre-FA potency (accuracy, anyone?), not the UEF's lack of map-dominating units.

ShadowKnight wrote:
The Aeon have Salvation and the Paragon, though the Paragon ALSO doesn't affect the whole map (You need Engineers in place to build things in range) and the Salvation doesn't have infinite range. By the above logic, the Aeon do NOT have a Game Ender. In reality, both Salvation and Paragon do the job, proving Mycen's definition of 'Game Ender' incorrect.

Not a bad point, but the Aeon have teleporting SCUs, which do threaten the entire map, and building a Paragon allows you to build and teleport as many of these as you like, anywhere you like. Remember, one of the concerns voiced when it was decided to nerf teleSCU was Aeon players teleporting into the middle of enemy bases and flash-building GCs. This is an actual possibility if you have a Paragon and a lot of room to work with.

You're absolutely right that, by my definition, the Aeon do not technically have a game-ender, but considering what you can do with a Paragon? I think it's close enough.

ShadowKnight wrote:
The Seraphim have the only unit in the game fitting Mycen's description, the Yolona Oss.

That they do.

ShadowKnight wrote:
The Cybran, for their part, have the Scathis (The strongest of the artillery units, and the cheapest Game Ender) which can be built within range easily enough(Far more so than any other faction thanks to extensive Stealth capabilities).

Now that it has had its range reverted to pre-FA levels, it only has game-ender potential if you're playing on a 20x20 or smaller. Have you ever tried to threaten someone's base with a Scathis on Betrayal Ocean? Good luck with that.

ShadowKnight wrote:
They also have perhaps the MOST threatening unit in the game to the whole map, the MASER fitted to their ACU. You are NEVER safe from a Cybran TeleMASER attack.

O RLY? How about I just move my commander underwater? Not to mention you LOSE if you mess up in the slightest. Seriously...

ShadowKnight wrote:
none of these things are relevant at the moment because they aren't being addressed in this balance round.

I was under the impression that they were 'relevant' because they were addressing QAI's concerns. Which is the title of the thread. I wasn't saying anything about changes to the aforementioned units, after all, I was merely pointing out their capabilities compared to what they Cybrans have available, and why that alone is a good enough reason to give stealth to Cybran Strategic Missile submarines. I guess I was mistaken, my apologies.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 24 Jun 2013, 07:32

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-23T18:05:23+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Alright, that's actually a good point. A legit game ender should, by definition, threaten the whole map. Not having a unit that can do that, Cybran is without a game ender.

Wrong.

First to other people...

The Mavor is incredibly easy to defend against, especially for its mass cost, even if you mix in half a dozen Novax. It does not threaten the whole map, because it threatens nothing. The UEF's Game Ender is currrently the Novax, which is dozens of times more powerful than its own mass in Mavors.

The Aeon have Salvation and the Paragon, though the Paragon ALSO doesn't affect the whole map (You need Engineers in place to build things in range) and the Salvation doesn't have infinite range. By the above logic, the Aeon do NOT have a Game Ender. In reality, both Salvation and Paragon do the job, proving Mycen's definition of 'Game Ender' incorrect.

The Seraphim have the only unit in the game fitting Mycen's description, the Yolona Oss.

The Cybran, for their part, have the Scathis (The strongest of the artillery units, and the cheapest Game Ender) which can be built within range easily enough(Far more so than any other faction thanks to extensive Stealth capabilities). They also have perhaps the MOST threatening unit in the game to the whole map, the MASER fitted to their ACU. You are NEVER safe from a Cybran TeleMASER attack.

Mavor needs a buff, Salvation needs a (Slight) nerf, Scathis may need a (Slight) Range buff, and none of these things are relevant at the moment because they aren't being addressed in this balance round.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 23 Jun 2013, 18:05

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-23T17:31:59+02:00

Alright, that's actually a good point. A legit game ender should, by definition, threaten the whole map. Not having a unit that can do that, Cybran is without a game ender.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 23 Jun 2013, 17:31

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-23T04:34:57+02:00

brent_w wrote:
Mycen wrote:The UEF has the Mavor and Novax as game-ending tools.

Are you serious?

You can't be serious ...

What's so funny about that? How would you defend against a Mavor, massed Novax or Mavor/novax combo? Besides even if they're not as good as they could/should be right now, they can always be tweaked, but they'll still maintain their infinite range.

FunkOff wrote:
Megalith spam is a game ender. I've never seen anything stop 10 of them.

I'm not talking about 20x20s where you don't need "game enders" in the first place. On an 81x81, forget stopping them, in the 30-40 minutes it would take to get ten megaliths to your base you could build a whole new base somewhere else. That and nukes.

Normal experimentals cannot threaten the entire map, so they're really not game-enders in the real sense.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 23 Jun 2013, 04:34

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-23T01:29:53+02:00

Megalith spam is a game ender. I've never seen anything stop 10 of them.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 23 Jun 2013, 01:29

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-22T19:15:13+02:00

Mycen wrote:
The UEF has the Mavor and Novax as game-ending tools.

Are you serious?

You can't be serious ...

Statistics: Posted by brent_w — 22 Jun 2013, 19:15

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-21T06:45:45+02:00

I know I'm a little late to the topic (although it hardly matters at this point, lol) but in regards to the Cybran Strategic Missile Sub getting stealth, here is why it is entirely appropriate. You say this:

qai wrote:
all changes to t3 sub ok but cybran t3 sub is not 'way more behind than other faction's strat subs'
so getting a new 'ability' ?

And you're right, it's not. But you know what is? Any other option Cybrans have for game-enders.

The UEF has the Mavor and Novax as game-ending tools. The Seraphim have the Yolona Oss. The Aeon have the Paragon to produce unlimited numbers of experimental units, nukes, etc.

Since the changes to the Scathis were implemented, the Cybrans have NO options for ultra-long range attack. Right now a Cybran player, with the shortest ranged T3 arty, has no way to crack a well defended base that includes other T3 arty.

QAI, your concerns about the nigh-invulnerability of stealthed Cybran nuke subs are exactly the point. The Cybrans will now have an option that allows them to achieve strategic dominance on large maps just like all of the other factions. Far from being a bad thing, this is overdue.

You can talk about how it will be impossible to track down a single sub, and that's true, but so what? On small maps it is already relatively easy to hunt down stealthed subs with navies, and a single nuke launcher of any form is never going to break SMD. If you don't build nuke defenses until you actually see a launcher then too bad for you.

Also, when combined with the drastic range reduction to strategic missiles fired from submarines, I doubt this will pose as large a problem as you seem to think. Cybran players (players going for any massed nukes really) still will have to sink just as large an amount of resources into their planned offense as a player trying to use any other game-enders. On large maps a relative handful of patrolling naval vessels (you just need some water vision coverage) will allow a player to discover the presence of stealthed subs and act accordingly, it will just present a challenge. Players will have to figure out that they need to build lots of SMD, but it's hardly as if they can't defend against it. That sort of sneakiness is what should typify the Cybran faction.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 21 Jun 2013, 06:45

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T23:39:51+02:00

I always liked the targeting priority because it actually made mixed units more viable.

I personally am not a fan of the spam one type of unit strategy that you see so much of.
I just don't see the gameplay benefit of discouraging variety.

But I'll happily admit I'm not the most experienced nor do I have as much stake in it as the more competitive people behind these decisions.

Mine is more of a philosophical beef.
I always viewed supcom's original identity more as a game of large armies in formation doing great battle.
So the pro's "Ok, he switched to spamming unit rock now I switch to spamming unit paper" microed clouds of units isn't as aesthetically pleasing to me. And isn't that's the most important factor? Making the battles look pretty?

... ignore me, I'm just rambling.

Statistics: Posted by brent_w — 17 Jun 2013, 23:39

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T23:06:27+02:00

pip wrote:
ShadowKnight wrote:I think qai is wrong with his first couple of points, but that last thing about the stealth sub DOES have a point. They have a stealth field boat, it doesn't need the stealth. On the other hand, I also think it should be stronger than the other subs. What about greater speed (Stealth boat is much, MUCH faster)? What about an large-area EMP blast from the normal cruise missiles? What about adding the Cybran missile-split aggressor to the Cruise Missile?

So we should remove stealth from the Barracuda and also from Monkeylord ? Stealth is a Cybran trait. The sub already has splitting missiles. How about playing with it in game before saying it's not good to give it stealth?

Strawmanning is the lowest form of rebuttal, pip. I didn't say "it's not good to give it Stealth", what I said that it "doesn't need the Stealth", emphasis on "need", meaning it isn't the only option. We knew the Sub needed something more, and Stealth was picked, but I think some of the other options are more interesting/fun. I am fine with Stealth, but I also can't deny that qai HAS got a point, it doesn't NEED Stealth, it could have something else instead.

One trait among those here I have noticed is many jumping to conclusions too fast. Cybran needs a small powerup on a unit = Give it stealth, it would seem, but if one thinks like this one leaves out options and the fun stuff doesn't make it in.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 17 Jun 2013, 23:06

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T15:25:43+02:00

ShadowKnight wrote:
I think qai is wrong with his first couple of points, but that last thing about the stealth sub DOES have a point. They have a stealth field boat, it doesn't need the stealth. On the other hand, I also think it should be stronger than the other subs. What about greater speed (Stealth boat is much, MUCH faster)? What about an large-area EMP blast from the normal cruise missiles? What about adding the Cybran missile-split aggressor to the Cruise Missile?

So we should remove stealth from the Barracuda and also from Monkeylord ? Stealth is a Cybran trait. The sub already has splitting missiles. How about playing with it in game before saying it's not good to give it stealth?

Statistics: Posted by pip — 17 Jun 2013, 15:25

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T14:30:45+02:00

I think qai is wrong with his first couple of points, but that last thing about the stealth sub DOES have a point. They have a stealth field boat, it doesn't need the stealth. On the other hand, I also think it should be stronger than the other subs. What about greater speed (Stealth boat is much, MUCH faster)? What about an large-area EMP blast from the normal cruise missiles? What about adding the Cybran missile-split aggressor to the Cruise Missile?

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 17 Jun 2013, 14:30

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T12:32:43+02:00

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=4121&p=46386#p46354

Spoiler: show

pip wrote:
If you have 42 Rhino against against 10 Bricks and 100 flaks, you now have a serious chance to win automatically, because instead of shooting at the 100 mobile flaks first, and all die, they will kill Bricks. And if you have a brain, you don't send your gunships at 100 flaks, you attack somewhere else. Before the change, not a single brick would have even been damaged, and they would all have several vet levels for killing all the rhino. The rhino woul have killed maybe 20 flaks. Yeah, that's much better...

You make it sounds like you attack units only 1v1 and it takes 18.5 second for a Ilshavoh to kill a rhino, but it will take 3 times less if you have 3 islhavoh, and then you have a chance to kill the rhino before it comes in firing range, instead of shooting harmless t1 and lose time and DPS switching targets all the time, which buys time for the rhino to come closer and damage your islhavoh much more.

As for stealth for Cybran t3 strat sub, please provide a replay where it is used before saying it's OP. These things have less than 4000 hp, they can be killed by a handful of torp bombers + a spy plane. The other strat sub can be protected by mobile shields, Cybran can't do that. Cybran is a stealth faction and has a weak t3 navy. This is meant to give Cybran the best strat sub.

Personnally, if I see a single game won with a strat sub, it will be a great achievement, because they are probably the most underused units in the whole game. If people begin to use them / fear them, it'll add variety to the gameplay.

example was intended to be easily understandable guess i failed, (sounds like tl;dr to me)
i know its relative long but try reading fully again not just parts

its a team game not 1v1, i with the rhinos need to kill most flaks so then my teammate can use his gunships to kill enemy acu or nukelauncher (is about to launch lots of t2pd around it) or experimental (gc almost finish) etc otherwise we lose

its easier to click 10 brick then clicking 100 flak, and due to t3 units hp is more effective for my tech2 units to kill t2 or t1
cause its faster, veterancy etc

cybran can achieve stealth strat sub anyways cause they have tech2 stealth ship
this change just messes up even more underused torpbombers and gives more hassle to keep patrolling all the segments of the water
to counter stealth underwater you can use only Omni which is only tech3 spyplane
so tech2/3 torpbomber, sonar is useless. imagine this on a big water map 10km+ how you gona find 1 unit

have nothing else to say.

Statistics: Posted by qai — 17 Jun 2013, 12:32

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T10:04:53+02:00

If you have 42 Rhino against against 10 Bricks and 100 flaks, you now have a serious chance to win automatically, because instead of shooting at the 100 mobile flaks first, and all die, they will kill Bricks. And if you have a brain, you don't send your gunships at 100 flaks, you attack somewhere else. Before the change, not a single brick would have even been damaged, and they would all have several vet levels for killing all the rhino. The rhino woul have killed maybe 20 flaks. Yeah, that's much better...

You make it sounds like you attack units only 1v1 and it takes 18.5 second for a Ilshavoh to kill a rhino, but it will take 3 times less if you have 3 islhavoh, and then you have a chance to kill the rhino before it comes in firing range, instead of shooting harmless t1 and lose time and DPS switching targets all the time, which buys time for the rhino to come closer and damage your islhavoh much more.

As for stealth for Cybran t3 strat sub, please provide a replay where it is used before saying it's OP. These things have less than 4000 hp, they can be killed by a handful of torp bombers + a spy plane. The other strat sub can be protected by mobile shields, Cybran can't do that. Cybran is a stealth faction and has a weak t3 navy. This is meant to give Cybran the best strat sub.

Personnally, if I see a single game won with a strat sub, it will be a great achievement, because they are probably the most underused units in the whole game. If people begin to use them / fear them, it'll add variety to the gameplay.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 17 Jun 2013, 10:04

Re: QAI concerns.

2013-06-17T01:00:43+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
...
-Rhino, Ilshavoh, Riptides, Blazes : target Tech 3, tech 2 then Tech 1 instead of Tech 1 then tech 2 then tech 3.
...
Cybran Strategic sub has stealth
...
This is the release candidate 1 : Unless someone has a big concern, it will be the final patch.

I have 2 big concern ( big enough? ) about: target priority and t3 cybran strat sub

1: target priority:

Yes i understand it got changed due to the planned role change to counter tech2 bots/etc.

Example/Imagine army1:opponent1 has 10 Brick and opponent2 100 flak
army2: i have 42 Rhino and teammate got 66 tech2 gunship
i want to kill flak fast so we can use/get air so we kill acu/nuke/exp/t3arty/etc
but i cant effectively cause i have to click them manually and with this change i can kill less due to focus target/overkill

Its easier to command Rhino, Ilshavoh, Riptides, Blazes to target t3 manually then commanding them to target the lots of tech2/tech1 units. also you would/should be using t3 vs t3 opponent anyways /t3 got way more hp to make difference with tech2 dps

So instead make them -Rhino, Ilshavoh, Riptides, Blazes : target Tech 2, Tech 1 then Tech 3.
(target tech2 first cause of the changes, then target tech1 cause they can kill them fast also this was the intended setting,
then tech3 cause lots of hp -> example brick/mobileshield/battleship/etc)

note: Ilshavoh should stay as it was.
example Ilshavoh 'killing' 1x mantis 24dps / in 3 seconds is better than 'killing' 1x rhino 100dps / in 18.5 sec
also better than 'killing' 1x Brick 375dps/ in 90sec
and yet also cause of faster veterancy gain, this is true for all of those units above
target priority should stay as it was for Rhino, Ilshavoh, Riptides, Blazes but if you really want to change it we

2: t3 cybran strat sub stealth

yea sure cybran uses best/most stealth units
all changes to t3 sub ok but cybran t3 sub is not 'way more behind than other faction's strat subs'
so getting a new 'ability' ?

imagine due to changes it becomes 'mobile invisible nuke launcher' (make nuke hidden somewhere then send it in to launch)
t3 sonars don't cover most maps even if u send sonar to middle of map, also seraphim has tech2 sonar only

after change you can't use sonar/torpedo bombers anymore vs cybran strat sub ( but works on aeon,uef )

sonars get useless cause you need Omni to counter vs stealthed cybran strat sub

people could use only tech3 spyplane constantly to scan whole water area for stealthed cybran nuke sub
some units didn't get stealth for a reason, all change ok but no stealthed strat sub

Statistics: Posted by qai — 17 Jun 2013, 01:00