Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-22T14:14:16+02:00

i dont think the rhino needs a buff at all. its currently one of the best units in t2 vs t1 because it has no overkill and is pretty cheap...
and i dont think speed makes much difference in micro because your tanks will run into eachother and bump around that speed is not that significant.
basically, if a tanks hp dps and cost is fucked up, small speed buffs wont save it.
and actually i agree that t2 tanks should be slower than t1units. why?
t1: simple low tech units. light and fast
t2: not much more tech than t1, just bigger and heavier units
t3: advaced high tech units so they are also fast

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 22 Mar 2013, 14:14

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T20:42:46+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Battleships should be faster than frigates ?

Perry 29 kts (dash) vs Kirov 32 kts (unlimited).
Aka 4,100 tonnes is slower than 28,000 tonnes.

Looks like BCG can be faster than FF.

Kof wrote:
MIG 21 - went into production in the mid 50s.
Max speed: 2,228 km/h

It had low drag thus it has smaller skin heating.
However it has bad maneuverability, atrocious landing speed, next to nonexistant range, no space for proper radar, low payload.

pip wrote:
For me, Othuum having 2.5 speed and Rhino having 2.7 speed is ridiculous, because one has more than 6000 HP of armor and the other 1150HP. 0.2 speed difference is not enough. Now, the difference is 0.7 speed, it makes more sense.

But the first one has been made by these who gave hover technology to Aeon. It's T3 unit, and it should be in league of its own. Harbringer mk IV would murder Rhino, thus there is no reason why Othuum shouldn't be able to do the same. Rhino can run away from Othuum, but it can't run away from Harbringer mk IV.

I think assistance of T3 factories by T1 eng reduced T3 entry costs which is one of causes of T2 problems.

Actually is there any volunteer to try a mod that increases T1 eng cost to 123-128 mass (and appropriate rise in energy) and T2 eng cost to 252 mass?

Statistics: Posted by Raghar — 11 Mar 2013, 20:42

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T10:25:31+02:00

We are not balancing toward realism but better gameplay, so this discussion has no place here.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Mar 2013, 10:25

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T10:44:27+02:00

Moltar wrote:
You can't use such a small sample size. I could also say that the MIG 21 has a max speed of 2228 km/h, however the SU-35, F-15, F-22 and, SU-27 all have speeds in excess or approaching 3000 km/h, Mach 2.25+. If people are going to make claims you need to include a large enough sample size to handle everything. The above is just an example.

@Moltar

I was just making the point that a technically far superior aircraft isn't necessarily faster than a lower tech one. I was responding to Sheppard's comment (see below):

ColonelSheppard wrote:
yep... a high tec airplane should indeed be slower than a low tec one, makes perfectly sence

I was not trying to say that a technically advanced aircraft can't be fast. That would be just like the statement that Sheppard made originally (though inverted).

Other examples of plane that are slower (relative to the max speed of the Mig-21), but that are far more technically advanced would be the F-35 or F-18 super.
I did mention the Mig-25 which is a 60s vintage plane, which is even faster than the mig-21.

I think my point stands, a low tech plane can be faster than a high tech one. Early jet fighters like the MIG21 have a broadly comparable max speed to current day jet fighters - the tech difference becomes most apparent in other areas IMO (avionics, sensors, agility, possibly stealthy characteristics etc).

Statistics: Posted by Kof — 11 Mar 2013, 10:15

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T08:19:09+02:00

Maybe you guys can test the new speeds in the balance test mod and check if T2 units are not better with the buffs they recieved?

Speed is more important than people think (and Sunny's replay with Crazed on his suggestion thread shows this very well), because micro is often the key to victory during an encounter. Speed allows more efficient micro (it's easier to catch up with t1 arties for instance, or to retreat when facing an ACU with Overcharge).

Maybe t2 needs something more, but they already "feel" better to use. Still heavier than t1 units, but not as slow as would be a t3 unit. They are more useful for map control.

For me, Othuum having 2.5 speed and Rhino having 2.7 speed is ridiculous, because one has more than 6000 HP of armor and the other 1150HP. 0.2 speed difference is not enough. Now, the difference is 0.7 speed, it makes more sense.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Mar 2013, 08:19

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T07:32:42+02:00

Sunny wrote:
Arx wrote:I agree that T2 units need buffs, maybe on speed and dps not HPs, currently T2 is not like a tech level, but a later phase of T1.
+0.5 speed and +5~10% dps should be enough.

Currently the cost effective of tanks are about:
T1 1.4
T2 1.6
T3 2.0
(I did some math on it and could be wrong)
And we get some units variety from tech level.

Wow! I agree. T2 tanks are still a even bit better because of micro their HP allows to perform. And T3s are even much much better.
I also did some math, based on focus-firing from both sides worst-case scenario.
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3087
You can find some sandbox tests there too, including different t2 tanks vs Cyb t1 mixes.
Also note, that T1 is going to win unmicroed.

I would like to see T2 tanks to be slower than T1 but more tanky, like dedicated "land superiority" or "taking certain ground" fighters vs T1 land tanks. Good example is Obsidian, but I would prefer it being even worse in terms of turning around and acceleration and having even more shield/hp, probably less dps. Speed itself might be left comparable to T1. The idea is to make attack with such units more of a commitment. Result: a feeling real heavy tanks, hard-microed, especially vulnerable for air, but soaking alot of damage and "slowly coming to stay for long".
This will keep T1 usable on late stages in game for harassment, but T3 will still be better for some tasks because of longer range (or speed). I would like all heavy T3s to have huge overkill, like Percies, so that they could murder T2 and T4, but T1 could still beat them mass for mass.

This will bring new fun to game. Imagine countering Persival spam with Mech Marine/Lobo armies, or 10-15 T2 tanks rolling over a base with PDs straight or going straight for comm ignoring sea or enemy's T1 spam.

I'm very busy doing my main job, probably if I'll get some time, I'll write a proof-of concept mod.

You may try divide mass value twice in "HDM".
What I used is:
{(dps*health) / [(mass+energy/200)^2]}^0.5 / [0.95^(range-24)]
200 is 1mass/1energy value rate, calculated from another formula.
24 is average attack range(I think)
0.95 is [1-2*(1/speed)/(health/dps)] for most tanks.
Quite guessing, and should be wrong.

T2 tanks can't replace T1 tanks, because T1 tanks have better dps/mass and speed.
If you got T3 tanks, there is no reason to build T2 ones, but there are still reasons to continue building T1.
If T2 tanks get speed buff, they will have a different role from T3.

Statistics: Posted by Arx — 11 Mar 2013, 07:32

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T02:43:54+02:00

Arx wrote:
I agree that T2 units need buffs, maybe on speed and dps not HPs, currently T2 is not like a tech level, but a later phase of T1.
+0.5 speed and +5~10% dps should be enough.

Currently the cost effective of tanks are about:
T1 1.4
T2 1.6
T3 2.0
(I did some math on it and could be wrong)
And we get some units variety from tech level.

Wow! I agree. T2 tanks are still a even bit better because of micro their HP allows to perform. And T3s are even much much better.
I also did some math, based on focus-firing from both sides worst-case scenario.
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3087
You can find some sandbox tests there too, including different t2 tanks vs Cyb t1 mixes.
Also note, that T1 is going to win unmicroed.

I would like to see T2 tanks to be slower than T1 but more tanky, like dedicated "land superiority" or "taking certain ground" fighters vs T1 land tanks. Good example is Obsidian, but I would prefer it being even worse in terms of turning around and acceleration and having even more shield/hp, probably less dps. Speed itself might be left comparable to T1. The idea is to make attack with such units more of a commitment. Result: a feeling real heavy tanks, hard-microed, especially vulnerable for air, but soaking alot of damage and "slowly coming to stay for long".
This will keep T1 usable on late stages in game for harassment, but T3 will still be better for some tasks because of longer range (or speed). I would like all heavy T3s to have huge overkill, like Percies, so that they could murder T2 and T4, but T1 could still beat them mass for mass.

This will bring new fun to game. Imagine countering Persival spam with Mech Marine/Lobo armies, or 10-15 T2 tanks rolling over a base with PDs straight or going straight for comm ignoring sea or enemy's T1 spam.

I'm very busy doing my main job, probably if I'll get some time, I'll write a proof-of concept mod.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 11 Mar 2013, 02:43

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T02:12:50+02:00

Kof wrote:
Sheppard, you're a great man for the sarcastic (and often rude) comments. In relation to your above post:

MIG 21 - went into production in the mid 50s.
Max speed: 2,228 km/h

Eurofighter - went into production in 2003
Max speed: 2,124 km

I could have made the comparison even more extreme by using the MIG 25.

You can't use such a small sample size. I could also say that the MIG 21 has a max speed of 2228 km/h, however the SU-35, F-15, F-22 and, SU-27 all have speeds in excess or approaching 3000 km/h, Mach 2.25+. If people are going to make claims you need to include a large enough sample size to handle everything. The above is just an example.

Statistics: Posted by Moltar — 11 Mar 2013, 02:12

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-11T00:23:52+02:00

I agree that T2 units need buffs, maybe on speed and dps not HPs, currently T2 is not like a tech level, but a later phase of T1.
+0.5 speed and +5~10% dps should be enough.

Currently the cost effective of tanks are about:
T1 1.4
T2 1.6
T3 2.0
(I did some math on it and could be wrong)
And we get some units variety from tech level.

Statistics: Posted by Arx — 11 Mar 2013, 00:23

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-03-10T10:34:47+02:00

Sheppard, you're a great man for the sarcastic (and often rude) comments. In relation to your above post:

MIG 21 - went into production in the mid 50s.
Max speed: 2,228 km/h

Eurofighter - went into production in 2003
Max speed: 2,124 km

I could have made the comparison even more extreme by using the MIG 25.

Statistics: Posted by Kof — 10 Mar 2013, 10:34

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-02-22T18:20:57+02:00

yep... a high tec airplane should indeed be slower than a low tec one, makes perfectly sence

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 22 Feb 2013, 18:20

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-02-22T17:47:12+02:00

Battleships should be faster than frigates ?

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 22 Feb 2013, 17:47

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-02-22T17:45:34+02:00

hmm ... t1 should be faster than t2 ...

Than lets do this lets t3 be slower than t2 for land and also for air tier so that int faster than asf ( indeed int is lighter than asf )

I like you idea

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 22 Feb 2013, 17:45

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-02-22T16:46:48+02:00

Rocket bot has more range than every other bot and outranges the gatling bot. With +100 hp this unit would be too strong. If you played against ZLO once you know the pain of t2 cybran bots

Statistics: Posted by Blackheart — 22 Feb 2013, 16:46

Re: Buff some T2 units speed and HPs.

2013-02-22T16:34:32+02:00

Rediska wrote:
Hoplites HP buff looks good.
But I dont agree with speed buffs. Heavy tank must be slower than light one, that is true.

Can you explain to me where I make heavy tanks faster than light tanks? For me, 3 speed for a T1 UEF tank is still significantly slower than the t1 medium tank (3.5 speed). The goal is too make t2 tanks not arrive the last of your army by a very big margin if you do not baby sit your units to artificially slow down your t1 units because your t2 ones are so slow. It makes sense that t2 units are slower, but not that slow.

As for saying speed is not a Cybran trait justifying why the poor rhino should at least be fast, check the HP as a reference : it has 1150 HP only compared to the UEF pillar, a pillar wins 1v1 easily due to its 1500HP, faster speed would mak rhino not so shitty. Right now, you can remove it from the game, it has no value whatsoever.

Finally, can someone justify to me how the Hoplite wiht 450 HP is so much better than the Mongoose with 650 HP? I mean 200 hp difference is huge, i am just suggesting to reduce the gap bcause for me stealth + hoplites is much easier to counter than mongosse + shield even if Hoplites have 550 HP instead of 450. Even Jester, a t1 unit, has more HP than the Hoplite, seriously...

Statistics: Posted by pip — 22 Feb 2013, 16:34