Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-06-04T13:35:00+02:00

Yes, the consequence of having other more effective options to auto-recall would mean that the meta-game would shift away from equipping auto-recall. That was the intention. Should then we just remove the concept of AR wholesale? Perhaps. Those are good points.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jun 2016, 13:35

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-06-04T11:11:46+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Limiting the options for ACU enhancements as higher level unlocks adds value to having a high level avatar. It is part of the trade off and a reward for protecting your Avatar. Those senior level avatars (ranks 5, 6, and 7) represented a huge investment of time and skill. They were a major asset to their team because of their ability to buy T3 RF. So loosing one is a serious blow to your team, and they need to be protected. This aspect of the meta-game encouraged highly defensive play once you reached the higher levels. So much so that these players would rarely engage in risky battles, and almost never without an AR.

And like I said those avatar are the same as dead then if they do not engage anymore because they have no incoming credit flow.
The noobs only get an advantage if the other guy is going for autorecall.

As you may remember I played with you in UEF and know the meta there quite good too. And as you may remember a lot of the noobs did not listen to your prayers and chose autorecall anyway.
In my opinion this will happen: the good players with skill will ditch the autorecall and choose one of the other upgrades and rely on big amounts of incoming drops and normal recall if they see the situation as lost (they will have rank quite fast), the noobs will fight themselves to rank and then try to keep it with autorecall (giving the good players even more credits), it is true that there is going to be a lot of noobs not reaching the rank for autorecall but their advantage of choosing another upgrade is lost as the pros will never choose autorecall anyway and have big drops as added advantage.

And in between t2 on a starting acu is going to be super strong. Just build an early tml and secure it with a t2 pd. Then shoot the other guys factory which is going t2 and watch him loosing his units against your t2 pd giving you even more mass. And if he even uses his acu to try and kil the tml and t2 pd you can and does not make it (which is likely) then you can kill him off with tml when he is recalling and can not move anymore.

and you forgot to address the stupid high complexity level your solution delivers to the gameplay.

I sincerely think that you make an elephant out of the mouse small problem of people not playing with high rank avatar. The number is way smaller than you think. Imho less than 5% will stop playing because they are scared of loosing their ranked avatar but more will stop playing because of too high complexity or because GW lost it's unique playstyle.
Imho it would be better to actually have a discussion if autorecall is needed. I think we never had one and Zep just pust in that feature because some people complained.

Statistics: Posted by Manfet — 04 Jun 2016, 11:11

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-06-04T02:44:58+02:00

When mentoring newer players in the UEF GW team. I advised lower level players who were under 1000 rank to NEVER buy auto-recall (even when they had the credits for it). I always told them to buy reinforcements instead, and to remain at level 2 or 3. That way they would actually win games. Because, dropping more RF was always better than splashing out on AR.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jun 2016, 02:44

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-06-04T02:16:57+02:00

Manfet wrote:
Hawkei wrote: - Advanced Auto Recall System (AARS). Allows autorecall just like the previous GW. It is impossible for your ACU to die. Very expensive. Available to higher tier ACU's only (above rank 3).

Please explain to me why it should only be available to higher rank. You will probably say that they are afraid of loosing that avatar. Well so what. if they do not play that avatar it is dead in it's own sense and they will not gain any credits. The avatar is dead.... etc.

Thankyou. I appreciate your comments and criticism. Please let me address your questions in order.

Please explain to me why it should only be available to higher rank.

During the last Galactic War I was fully involved and therefore have a good understanding of the meta-game. The reason for this is because low level avatars are cheap. If your level 1 or 2 avatar (Private or Corporal) dies there is no great loss. You just pick a new one and go again. The loss of a level 3 (Sergeant) is a minor irritation, as this gave T2 RF, and usually took at least a few victories to gain. But for any competent player getting to level 3 was no big deal.

Now, the entire purpose of Auto recall (AR) was to protect the avatar, so, what point is there in protecting a low level avatar? Actually acquiring AR for a level 1, 2, or 3 avatar was a noob error. Because, that was 4000 credits that would not be spent on RF. Those players would also stand a high chance of dying, and therefore gifting huge amounts of credits to the winner.... Farming AR was often more profitable than actually killing avatars. In such situations it was better to die, and loose your avatar, than it was to give your opponent the windfall in credits.

Limiting the options for ACU enhancements as higher level unlocks adds value to having a high level avatar. It is part of the trade off and a reward for protecting your Avatar. Those senior level avatars (ranks 5, 6, and 7) represented a huge investment of time and skill. They were a major asset to their team because of their ability to buy T3 RF. So loosing one is a serious blow to your team, and they need to be protected. This aspect of the meta-game encouraged highly defensive play once you reached the higher levels. So much so that these players would rarely engage in risky battles, and almost never without an AR.

And imho it is stupid that you have to go with a disadvantage to be able to kill somebody who is higher rank than you are and therefore probably better than you. Please explain to me why somebody with higher skill should be near unable to kill.

Also if you understand all of the other options I was suggesting. I think you will see that going into a battle without the ARS or AARS then you actually do get an advantage. The RAE, T2BS, IRES, and ARJ. As you can see, these other options suit different styles of play can counter auto-recall perfectly. Going in with 2x res on your ACU, or T2 build suite is a big advantage. Also, going in with self contained E-storage and RF beacon means the ACU can overcharge earlier and more reliably, as well as being able to make better use of RF. This suits a more aggressive play style. The last of these is the ARJ - which directly nullifies the auto-recall and reverts the match to a generic game.

If you analyse each of these options, and predict the meta-game which would result. You will begin to see that these other options are even more powerful than auto-recall. Which is to say, that equipping it would make you safer, but much more likely to actually loose the game. With this selection of options there is perfect balance and a range of risk vs. reward profiles. So each player can choose their required system to suit their mission and their desired level of risk.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jun 2016, 02:16

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-06-03T18:02:57+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
- Advanced Auto Recall System (AARS). Allows autorecall just like the previous GW. It is impossible for your ACU to die. Very expensive. Available to higher tier ACU's only (above rank 3).

Please explain to me why it should only be available to higher rank. You will probably say that they are afraid of loosing that avatar. Well so what. if they do not play that avatar it is dead in it's own sense and they will not gain any credits. The avatar is dead.

I like your creativeness but in my opinion this is not GW anymore. This is a whole new mod. Call it however you want. But noobs are getting overwhelmed by the complexity of FA anyway. And with this many difference ways to push stuff on the acu you are pushing complexity to a whole new level.

Actually it does not make sense that credits should be able to buy you another advantage on the acu. Every ACU should be at start the same on the battlefield a plain acu. This is they way the story tells it too.
If you can't get rid of Autorecall then make it an upgrade on the acu which you can upgrade in game and make it as pricey as gun and only give normal credits if acu gets autorecalled. Imho this still sucks but at least everybody has a way to kill an acu at the start if he does not normal recall right away.
In War Avatars die! And if he is scared and wants to not loose his avatar he will get protection for it at a disadvantage in game (where it counts out on the battlefield).

And imho it is stupid that you have to go with a disadvantage to be able to kill somebody who is higher rank than you are and therefore probably better than you. Please explain to me why somebody with higher skill should be near unable to kill.

Statistics: Posted by Manfet — 03 Jun 2016, 18:02

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-05-29T11:05:26+02:00

Big flaw of prevous gw system was that making somebody autorecall was equal to the kill, so new players were often suiciding cause nothing to loose, and not so new players suicide cause they can't loose anything with autorecall, so good players farm kills that for some reason give ton of credits so good players have to buy thibgs for everyone to not overflow credits, witch is kinda good but still, I remember aulex had like 100harbs in his reinfircements storage

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 29 May 2016, 11:05

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-05-29T09:22:27+02:00

Manfet wrote:
most galactic war games did not enter the t2 stage and even if they did, at t2 stage only the really stupid would get hurt by a jammer because one could recall on the normal way easily enough if you see that you will loose the game.
As I once already said, GW was fun because everybody could kill everybody in a cheatish dirty way and if you got scared you always could recall.
With autorecall the good players became imba because they could not be killed (they would not be able to get killed with the score system or the high credits system either and especially not with t2 or t3 structures).
There is no reason thave autorecall except that people got too many feelings for their avatar. Imho everybody should have the rights to buy every unit on the field too.
Autorecall kills of GW style gameplay.
I see no reason for autorecall, the most sensible way of putting in autorecall I think would be a new ladder for GW games, the higher rank the more cost the autorecall, give noobs a chance I guess

The problem I believe could be solved by creating alternate ACU Enhancement Systems. Equally powerful to the Autorecall and mutually exclusive. Which is to say, that if you want to stand a better chance of winning the game, or making a kill, then you need to live dangerously and drop the Autorecall.

Ideas were as follows:
- Auto Recall System (ARS). Allows autorecall when damaged, but, has a 2 second activation time and activates on low health (300 HP). Meaning that if the ACU takes damage over time it will recall. If it takes alpha strike damage it will still die.
- Advanced Auto Recall System (AARS). Allows autorecall just like the previous GW. It is impossible for your ACU to die. Very expensive. Available to higher tier ACU's only (above rank 3).
- Resource Allocation Enhancer (RAE) . Increase the base Resource System on the ACU to 2x normal. Which would allow more complex build orders and faster growth. It would also be a huge advantage on low mass maps, or where a conventional eco cannot be used.
- T2 Build Suite (T2BS). ACU gates in with the T2 build suite automatically enabled.
- Internalised RF Beacon & E-storage Systems (IRES). ACU does not need to build the beacon to deploy reinforcements. They will drop directly onto the ACU. The ACU energy storage has been increased to allow overcharge without the need for an energy storage structure.
- Auto Recall Jammer (ARJ) - For those assassin ACU's who like to live dangerously. It will nullify all enemies ARS and AARS, as an on-board ACU upgrade. Meaning that both ACU's are now able to be killed. This is used when you want to increase the stakes.

The way this would operate is that you can purchase all of the above systems. But only one system can be equipped during a game. So you need to make a choice. Do you want to feel more safe, or be more effective? It also allows for greater diversity in tactics where teams can use complementary systems. Such as an ARJ and IRES combo, or an ARJ with two AARS players. A T2BS and RAE can team up to do some incredibly early snipes and tech rushes. It is perfectly balanced, because each ACU Enhancement System has a weakness to something else.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 29 May 2016, 09:22

Re: Recall Jammer

2016-05-29T00:01:47+02:00

most galactic war games did not enter the t2 stage and even if they did, at t2 stage only the really stupid would get hurt by a jammer because one could recall on the normal way easily enough if you see that you will loose the game.
As I once already said, GW was fun because everybody could kill everybody in a cheatish dirty way and if you got scared you always could recall.
With autorecall the good players became imba because they could not be killed (they would not be able to get killed with the score system or the high credits system either and especially not with t2 or t3 structures).
There is no reason thave autorecall except that people got too many feelings for their avatar. Imho everybody should have the rights to buy every unit on the field too.
Autorecall kills of GW style gameplay.
I see no reason for autorecall, the most sensible way of putting in autorecall I think would be a new ladder for GW games, the higher rank the more cost the autorecall, give noobs a chance I guess

Statistics: Posted by Manfet — 29 May 2016, 00:01

Re: Recall Jammer

2015-11-13T11:16:28+02:00

Maybe a you could have a large T3 expensive jammer that blocks the entire map and a smaller more fragile T2 one with limited range?

Statistics: Posted by Comrade_Shamrock — 13 Nov 2015, 11:16

Re: Recall Jammer

2015-10-01T17:16:36+02:00

There was a suggestion I made, in another thread on Auto Recall.

My suggestion was to essentially create number of ACU "load outs", which are mutually exclusive. You could think of it as being a "4th ACU Upgrade Slot" for Galactic War. Essentially, a player could equip their ACU with Auto Recall or they could equip an Auto Recall Jammer. But they couldn't equip both at the same time.

Essentially, Auto Recall would become the standard "safe mode". and Jammer would become a countering, or, "assassin mode". But the player choosing this option does so at increased personal risk, as they are forfeiting this capability themselves.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 01 Oct 2015, 17:16

Re: Recall Jammer

2015-03-24T18:21:53+02:00

Or make it an expensive ACU upgrade with a limited range, so you can pin an opposing commander in the field but will have to have your own commander in harms way and maybe sacrifice other potential upgrades as a result, just food for thought. It might be sweet if when a recall was initiated you had to air drop your ACU in to try and cancel it.

Statistics: Posted by Gyle — 24 Mar 2015, 18:21

Re: Recall Jammer

2014-12-28T16:28:16+02:00

I also told the price is the key. If there are to complicated mechnisms arround this people will not understand it anymore. Simply make it expensive enough or like i told make another currency like number of won battles.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 28 Dec 2014, 16:28

Re: Recall Jammer

2014-12-28T01:19:08+02:00

Nah, the solution is simple, you just make it cost like, 2500 credits per AR. High level avatars will be able to collect funds from their underlings to stay alive, bad players will never raise the funds to do it, and high level avatars will be able to distribute ARs around any team they take to a very important fight, if they so choose. It's about strategy and teamwork this way, not about building a structure in game, which can only lead to AR being useless if the building is cheap enough, or nothing changing if it isn't.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 28 Dec 2014, 01:19

Re: Recall Jammer

2014-12-25T19:53:14+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
Or make it counterable by another structure and scale the power with the amount of power the other guy is using :O

That Structure already exists:
http://supcom.standardof.net/files/2012 ... UNCHER.png

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 25 Dec 2014, 19:53

Re: Recall Jammer

2014-12-25T15:06:17+02:00

Or make it counterable by another structure and scale the power with the amount of power the other guy is using :O

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 25 Dec 2014, 15:06