Forged Alliance Forever

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-11-02T19:47:57+02:00

@Wakke - Not up to me, and I don't even want to think about the impact a range change might have

@RoundTabler - Because then that wouldn't reduce projectile count, which defeats the point.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 02 Nov 2013, 19:47

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-11-02T15:31:15+02:00

What if you staggered the firing? Rather than firing 4 projectiles in a row in .1 seconds, if you had them fire 1 projectile every quarter second, then it wouldn't be frontloaded (as much)?

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 02 Nov 2013, 15:31

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-11-02T12:43:47+02:00

How about combining front loading damage with longer range? I could see asf maneuvering/positioning come more into play if that were the case.

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 02 Nov 2013, 12:43

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-27T02:39:47+02:00

Yes, but the resulting change wouldn't have anything even close to the effect of reducing the projectile count for all four.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 27 Oct 2013, 02:39

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-26T23:15:04+02:00

Can't you only merge the aeon 3 projectiles into one? (so no front loading) That should at least help a little and not change the game at all.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 26 Oct 2013, 23:15

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-26T20:31:43+02:00

Retnut wrote:
Lame wrote:what increase of damage are we talking about here?

what is the effect of asf vs asf?
i imagine this change could possibly lead to a decrease of skill needed in air fights
on the other hand it could even out the losses of air fights a more which could be a good change.

For reference, the mod posted normalizes all the ASFs to a fire rate of 1 shot/2 sec. Restorers get the same treatment. The effect is:
Aeon ASF: fire rate = 1/6x original, damage = 6x original
Sera ASF: fire rate = 1/6x original, damage = 6x original
UEF ASF: fire rate = 1/2x original, damage = 2x original
Cybran ASF: fire rate = 1/4x original, damage = 4x original
Restorer: fire rate = 1/2x original, damage = 2x original

As for what it does in game, you could guestimate based on firing range and speed, but sandbox would be a better bet.

Except that isn't ACTUALLY what the mod does. Not quite. You make out there that the ASFs had different firing sequences overall when in fact, in the current game, all the ASFs do around 400 damage in 1 second. The fact that the damage is split into multiple projectiles is of very little consequence aside from the SIM lag. So, in fact, ALL the units mentioned got 1/2 the ROF and double the Damage. All of them went from 400 damage every second to 800 damage every two.

I took another look at this, trying to get the same performance gain without frontloading the Damage. Even with my mod, the Cybran and UEF ASFs fire two projectiles for their 800 Damage rather than one, and the Restorer still fires two Missiles every two seconds. It looks like I can't get rid of the frontloading. I tried putting the sequence back to 400 damage every second, but for UEF and Cybran with only one projectile. In doing so, it made the plane favour one side, and be unable to fire from the other, and I can't fix that without giving them 360 Degrees of fire (A bad idea), so I gave up with it.

Looks like it's going to be performance gain and Frontloadedness, or same old same old guys. Sorry :/

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 26 Oct 2013, 20:31

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-25T03:21:05+02:00

Lame wrote:
what increase of damage are we talking about here?

what is the effect of asf vs asf?
i imagine this change could possibly lead to a decrease of skill needed in air fights
on the other hand it could even out the losses of air fights a more which could be a good change.

For reference, the mod posted normalizes all the ASFs to a fire rate of 1 shot/2 sec. Restorers get the same treatment. The effect is:
Aeon ASF: fire rate = 1/6x original, damage = 6x original
Sera ASF: fire rate = 1/6x original, damage = 6x original
UEF ASF: fire rate = 1/2x original, damage = 2x original
Cybran ASF: fire rate = 1/4x original, damage = 4x original
Restorer: fire rate = 1/2x original, damage = 2x original

As for what it does in game, you could guestimate based on firing range and speed, but sandbox would be a better bet.

Statistics: Posted by Retnut — 25 Oct 2013, 03:21

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T15:29:15+02:00

Lame wrote:
what increase of damage are we talking about here?

what is the effect of asf vs asf?
i imagine this change could possibly lead to a decrease of skill needed in air fights
on the other hand it could even out the losses of air fights a more which could be a good change.

Not a clue. Why don't you host a game using the mod and find out?

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 23 Oct 2013, 15:29

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T15:22:46+02:00

what increase of damage are we talking about here?

what is the effect of asf vs asf?
i imagine this change could possibly lead to a decrease of skill needed in air fights
on the other hand it could even out the losses of air fights a more which could be a good change.

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 23 Oct 2013, 15:22

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T14:39:24+02:00

Since there have been lots of discussion about making t2 and t1 better vs asfs, and air experimentals are almost universely considered weak, the effect of this on balance !seems! to be a good effect (not to mention the improvement in sim speed). Good job shadowknight.

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 23 Oct 2013, 14:39

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T14:10:47+02:00

So, preliminary results are in, and the concept is sound. Pitting numbers of 300 VS 300 in a repeatable sandbox, I saw an increase in relative simspeed of 1-2 (UEF VS Cybran), 2-3 (Cybran or UEF mixed with Aeon or Seraphim), and 4-5 in the daddy of Aeon vs Seraphim, (Or Aeon/Aeon or Seraphim/Seraphim).

So... This concept is sound. HOWEVER, frontloading the damage like I have does affect the balance slightly, for better or worse I cannot tell. It seems at first that this buffs the ASFs against Restorers (Frontloaded damage is good against medium HP units like that), but the effect against experimentals is less clear. Certainly in higher numbers the ASF is now better against them, as it drops the Experimental in fewer passes. However, I did observe that at high speed they only get one shot off against a Czar before having to circle around, wasting extra time. Effect: Unclear.

Against T1/T2 this will make the ASF worse, because the Frontloaded damage will be wasted.

Overall, the concept is sound. The question is whether these balance issues are worth it for the considerable SimSpeed increase. I think they are.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 23 Oct 2013, 14:10

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T12:12:01+02:00

another problem of the asf fights are also the air crashes, they have to be calculated for each dying asf (where it crashes, what speed, crash damage, etc), this can sum up to alot calc work depending on asf numbers

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 23 Oct 2013, 12:12

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T08:06:57+02:00

Before thinking of any other unit or balance problem, let's wait to see if it's actually helping.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 23 Oct 2013, 08:06

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-23T00:10:07+02:00

Good idea, Its only to mantain the same damage per second AND the Hitting capacity, because the chances of hitting (due the speed) could be lower(or not?)
These for all ASFs..But, what about others?Interceptors and Fighter-bombers versus the NEW ASFs?

Statistics: Posted by vongratz — 23 Oct 2013, 00:10

Re: ASF Lag Investigation

2013-10-22T22:22:20+02:00

Hmmmm. While this might (should) work, with 200+ asfs on the field, when you first engage the enemy, there will still be at least 200 projectiles. This would be better than it is now (in theory - but how would it affect gameplay?). But what about making the projectile itself less resource intensive (if this is possible).

My 2cents

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 22 Oct 2013, 22:22