Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-24T02:19:07+02:00

DeimosEvotec wrote:
Maybe we should do something different with the SCU sacri upgrade?
Because if the upgrade costs are added then it's OP
and if they are not then what would you sacri them for?
15 for a GC? unlikely
2 for a t3 pgen? maybe if your powergrid just got wiped out
2 for a t3 shield?
4 for a nuke defense or 8 for a nuke launcher? how much do the nukes and antis cost themself? It's not in the db.
and for units it's meh anyways as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on this? Also considering that it's competing with the rapid fabricator which add 42 bp.

Land-based T3 nukes; 5 minutes at 40 / s = 12K
antis 4 minutes at 15 / s = 3.6k

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 24 May 2015, 02:19

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-16T00:19:22+02:00

Maybe we should do something different with the SCU sacri upgrade?
Because if the upgrade costs are added then it's OP
and if they are not then what would you sacri them for?
15 for a GC? unlikely
2 for a t3 pgen? maybe if your powergrid just got wiped out
2 for a t3 shield?
4 for a nuke defense or 8 for a nuke launcher? how much do the nukes and antis cost themself? It's not in the db.
and for units it's meh anyways as far as I am concerned.
What are your thoughts on this? Also considering that it's competing with the rapid fabricator which add 42 bp.

Statistics: Posted by DeimosEvotec — 16 May 2015, 00:19

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-15T21:49:37+02:00

I find sacrificice now totally useless. I often use it to get rid of t1 engies late-game, recycling them into some exps. However, they usually just get stuck around the building and I have to re-issue the order like 15 times before all ~200 t1 engies are gone.

DeimosEvotec wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:
DeimosEvotec wrote:IceDreamer would this rework be the same for aeon sarci SCUs?
If yes, is the cost of upgrades added or is it only for the base cost of the SCUs?

I'd say that would be a decision for the community.

Imo if it goes in it should only be for the base cost of the SCUs
else you get 2 tele sacri SCUs into instant GC in the enemy base Shenanigans.
Which would maybe be a tiny bit op.

That's exactly what I was about to post. Tele + Sacrifice would make for fast GC's at any place on map :p

If it was mass for mass trade even with missles, you could insta-load an smd or nuke launcher. That would be OP too.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 15 May 2015, 21:49

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-15T09:55:47+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
DeimosEvotec wrote:IceDreamer would this rework be the same for aeon sarci SCUs?
If yes, is the cost of upgrades added or is it only for the base cost of the SCUs?

I'd say that would be a decision for the community.

Imo if it goes in it should only be for the base cost of the SCUs
else you get 2 tele sacri SCUs into instant GC in the enemy base Shenanigans.
Which would maybe be a tiny bit op.

Statistics: Posted by DeimosEvotec — 15 May 2015, 09:55

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-15T02:46:59+02:00

DeimosEvotec wrote:
IceDreamer would this rework be the same for aeon sarci SCUs?
If yes, is the cost of upgrades added or is it only for the base cost of the SCUs?

I'd say that would be a decision for the community.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 15 May 2015, 02:46

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-14T22:40:11+02:00

IceDreamer would this rework be the same for aeon sarci SCUs?
If yes, is the cost of upgrades added or is it only for the base cost of the SCUs?

Statistics: Posted by DeimosEvotec — 14 May 2015, 22:40

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-14T06:58:00+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
ZLO, just because the unit's mass is paid for doesn't mean the unit completes. The factory simply stops draining mass, but it keeps building until the E cost is paid for.

Personally I think Sacrifice should be buffed so that it simply adds the unit's Mass AND Energy cost, 100%, to the unit under construction. This would be less efficient on units under construction in a factory which has adjacency as it would waste some of the adjacency reduction, but much better for anything without adjacency, and better than currently across the board.

This I think is the best idea for sacrifice that I've seen.

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 14 May 2015, 06:58

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-14T02:11:20+02:00

Nono, once the mass is paid, the factory will simply drain 0 Mass/sec and X E/s until it's all paid for.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 14 May 2015, 02:11

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-14T00:03:59+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
ZLO, just because the unit's mass is paid for doesn't mean the unit completes. The factory simply stops draining mass, but it keeps building until the E cost is paid for.

Personally I think Sacrifice should be buffed so that it simply adds the unit's Mass AND Energy cost, 100%, to the unit under construction. This would be less efficient on units under construction in a factory which has adjacency as it would waste some of the adjacency reduction, but much better for anything without adjacency, and better than currently across the board.

ok, then i am not sure if i understand your solution as well.

so lest say i am sacrficing ~10 engies on ASF and will pay like ~80% mass cost and 1% power cost,then in few sec factory will dump rest of the mass into ASF, but there will still be power that has to get in... your way would be like..,.only changin factory so it does not drain mass when it is not needed? (assuming that you just said, that it was reason... that unit is not completed until power cost is payed too, but factory still drains that mass even if mass cost was already completed (Edit: so we blame factory xD))

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 14 May 2015, 00:03

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-13T23:35:58+02:00

ZLO, just because the unit's mass is paid for doesn't mean the unit completes. The factory simply stops draining mass, but it keeps building until the E cost is paid for.

Personally I think Sacrifice should be buffed so that it simply adds the unit's Mass AND Energy cost, 100%, to the unit under construction. This would be less efficient on units under construction in a factory which has adjacency as it would waste some of the adjacency reduction, but much better for anything without adjacency, and better than currently across the board.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 13 May 2015, 23:35

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-13T23:18:21+02:00

i do not remeber any bugs with current complicated system...

only problem that sacrifice get HIGHLY ineffective when you attemt to sacrifice on stuff that has different mass/power ratio...

for example if you sacrifice t1 engy on t1 engy, you will get 60% of it... so it is 100% efficiency of sacrifice, all 60% of mass and 60% of power were put into that unit..
If you try same on ASF, you will add 260*0.6 power cost of engy to 40000 total cost of ASF, witch is only 0.0039 of ASF (0.39%)
So only 0.12168 of 31.2 mass that you could sacrifice was put to use... many players will not know that and it can be slight problem or can cause little frustration.

usually when new palyers ask something about sacrifice, people just say: only thing that you have to remember - that it is totally useless, better just ctrl+k and reclaim...

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 13 May 2015, 23:18

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-13T23:03:53+02:00

Reaper Zwei wrote:
You saying that's how it works now? That seems overly complicated. I still think it should be mass value of the engy put towards the mass value of whatever its sacrificing itself for.

so lets say instead of assisting t3 air HQ, i will just put 7 or so t1 land factories, adjusted to my mexes or to pgens (just not that you still get adjustency discount)

then spam tons of engy towards air factory and sacrifice them to make ASFs...
and for every 7 engy (52*7 = ~350 = ASF mass cost) i should get 1 ASF...

7 engy energie cost is like 260*7 and one single ASF energie cost is 40000...
so that is kinda unfair, right? xD

same unfairness will be there for almost everything past t1... cause that higher tech stuff cost alot of power... not even talking about UEF support commander with double shield or cybran double cloak commander... imagine how much power you can save there... (oh wait, they are not aeon, but still can happen in team games...)

Edit: forgot to say that normally they only give 60% of their mass or power to target, so you will need about 13 t1 engy per ASF witch is 3380 power, still more than 10 times cheaper than regular ASF production

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 13 May 2015, 23:03

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-13T21:52:28+02:00

ZLO_RD wrote:
0.6 for engies and 0.9 for scu

Mass or energie? The bigger one...
If mass/energie ratio is bigger than mass/power of engy, means that this thing cost more mass than energie, compared to engineer, and sacrifice will add (0.6 * mass) cost of engy to building that you want to build...

So lets say building cost 3240 mass and 1 energie...
Mass/power ratio is bigger, so it will take about 100 t1 engineers sacrifice to build (54*100*0.6 = 3240)
Note how all power that was in 100 engies is completely wasted.

So if anything has different mass/power ratio from engy you will loose effficiency

So engies and scu will be efficient on different buildings, also it takes raw cost of scu and does not take in account any upgrades including sacrifice upgraide

Just saying that scu sacrifice is pretty efficient for nukes and antinukes, so you can rush them pretty fast useing sacrifice... But be sure that you will have something to actually finish building xD cause some times you end on 99% and no build power left

You saying that's how it works now? That seems overly complicated. I still think it should be mass value of the engy put towards the mass value of whatever its sacrificing itself for.

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 13 May 2015, 21:52

Re: Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-12T14:05:22+02:00

0.6 for engies and 0.9 for scu

Mass or energie? The bigger one...
If mass/energie ratio is bigger than mass/power of engy, means that this thing cost more mass than energie, compared to engineer, and sacrifice will add (0.6 * mass) cost of engy to building that you want to build...

So lets say building cost 3240 mass and 1 energie...
Mass/power ratio is bigger, so it will take about 100 t1 engineers sacrifice to build (54*100*0.6 = 3240)
Note how all power that was in 100 engies is completely wasted.

So if anything has different mass/power ratio from engy you will loose effficiency

So engies and scu will be efficient on different buildings, also it takes raw cost of scu and does not take in account any upgrades including sacrifice upgraide

Just saying that scu sacrifice is pretty efficient for nukes and antinukes, so you can rush them pretty fast useing sacrifice... But be sure that you will have something to actually finish building xD cause some times you end on 99% and no build power left

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 12 May 2015, 14:05

Sacrifice on Aeon engy

2015-05-12T12:21:54+02:00

First off just curious if anybody knows what values are currently being used for the trade 'cause I did a test and it took 44 T3 engies to take a T3 pgen from almost 0 to complete and on another test it took 16 SCU's to take a GC from almost 0 to complete. Another thing I noticed is that you can sacrifice for any building or unit (even those building in a factory) but you cant sacrifice for any kind of missile.

I feel like it should just be a mass for mass trade. Still wouldn't be used all that often IMO but could be useful in certain situations, also make it work on missiles.

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 12 May 2015, 12:21