Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-16T11:11:15+02:00

Original BP was 60, it was never 80.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 16 Apr 2015, 11:11

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-16T00:11:08+02:00

OK everyone I had discussion with ithilis about that...

I make it clear :

he want to lower from 90 to 80 BP of T3 facto, and make them cost little less so that the BP/mass doesn't change.
=> doesn't make engie assisting T3 facto even more efficient.

All that in order to have "not ugly" number.

What i think : it's losing time for nothing.

(He won't touch at BP and price of HQ, so it doesn't make rush tech faster.)

Hope everyone understand now.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 16 Apr 2015, 00:11

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T23:44:25+02:00

a lot of the things people said are irrelevant - we need to look at this change and see if it leads the game in a nice direction.
So:
proposal to change t3 fac buildpower : 90 -> 80

this change will nerf t3 land
nerf engymod - more assisting of engies less facs
make this game (slightly) easier to understand and do calculations around.

personally i think this is a bad thing to do. - i like engymod because of ... (insert all the reasons here like less lag, ect) also all the scus are the real deal here, and t3 land rush doesnt see much support fac use, only later do they come into play.

however im not really a pro at this and if the game would benefit from having t3 land build a bit slower then we should put this change in. asking some pros this specific question would help: are t3 support factories a little too good atm? is t3 land too fast to spam out of them?

then come back here with the answers and solve this issue.

this is so easy no need to argue about this at all. just apply a logical method to all this instead of relying on opinion based arguments.

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 15 Apr 2015, 23:44

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T22:53:48+02:00

Your comparison to ACU HP shows me that you are just off your rocker. The influence on balance by your change will be several orders of magnitude greater than changing ACU HP by 14 would be. That's 1 single T1 tank shell. It's less than 2s of regen. Your change deals with economy, where even a 0.1% shift, over time, and the breadth of a dozen factories, can add up to a significant change. Even if you change the unit build times to compensate so the overall time to build a unit doesn't change, you are still making an overall significant change to assist efficiency, to resource drain/s, therefore to resource income required to sustain production. There are so many knock on effects whenever you do anything with the economy of this game. You cannot compare it to ACU HP being off by 14.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 15 Apr 2015, 22:53

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T22:28:12+02:00

Before it was 80bp all units have perfect number per second all was roughed, balance by units was nearly same as is now (differences is outhum and harb that was corecting for roughed number). After it engy mod come, with strong tendention nerf assisting swarm of T1 enginer that slow game, reasult was cheap slave factory and buff T3 factory by bp, all was buffed by number that is divisible by prebious number, on land was take non divisible, and lowest number 50% on air/navy 12,5% on land bacause land is most common and can most common lead to problems. Zep was start fixing first problem what was harbringer was build by 35s instead of 40 he fix it. but dont fix, same with outhum, but dont fix any other units.

but this is pointles, i feel like in alice wonderland when.. this is total madnes, and looks like pointles explain total obvious think

Omg im angry and my english is even more master shit as is normal.. hope that none would die on eye cancer after reading it

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 22:28

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T21:31:08+02:00

oh and btw : currently :
13.50 BP/mass for T2 land facto
14.33 BP/mass for T3 land facto

13.33 BP/mass for T2 naval facto
13.33 BP/mass for T3 naval facto

with your change (T3 land facto to 80 BP)
=> 16.125 BP/mass for T3 land facto

it make the land facto even less efficient than before. Maybe you want to lower the price of the T3 facto so that it can keep the same BP/mass. But i still fail to understand why introduce so much change, for something that much futile...

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 15 Apr 2015, 21:31

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T21:02:11+02:00

keyser wrote:
do we really need to have sheeo and Co. to change those number, so that they are "not ugly" ?

here is answer ->

Ithilis wrote:
if that work would be integrate, i can do it.

no we dont need him to do it, i would do it by myself!

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 21:02

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T20:56:31+02:00

do we really need to have sheeo and Co. to change those number, so that they are "not ugly" ?
i don't think so. There is tons of bugs to fix : from the last lobby update, to the ingame bug (that can really create unbalance). And they are trying to have a better server too.

When all that is done, they will maybe change those number back and integrate it to the game. I don't think that discussion is needed, much more important thing to focus on atm.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 15 Apr 2015, 20:56

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T20:59:52+02:00

D4E_Omit wrote:
I can kinda see why you want the numbers to be even but it's probably better to focus on bigger things for now. Like for say if the percival is actually 9312HP but the ingame health bar would round it to the nearest 100, nobody would care

This is only technical change, whiteout any balance change what is not go througt because **** because noone know why.. Technical thinks go throught, and i was in any nightmare not except this level of dullnes.

D4E_Omit wrote:
Like for say if the percival is actually 9312HP but the ingame health bar would round it to the nearest 100, nobody would care

but its not rounted, you see that units its build by 53s and it drain 203e not routed for 200, what i want to do is rounded it. but much rather i would take it back (because its much less work) And when it would have 9312HP you would not see it in game, then someone find it in blue print, and would want to correct it for 9300hp would here be crowd of complainers that would heroic defend percival with 9312hp ????? where in game its not visible, they probably never notice it before
_________________________

Zoram wrote:
I'm not sure to understand most of what you're trying to say.

what im say, that here was make mistake where zep decide take +10 build power to T3 factory that is leading on situation where every units build by T3 factory have ugly numbers linking with build time.

why was this decision done you can ask zep, but i am 99% sure, because he want nerf assisting swarm T1 enginer assisting single factory. This situation already dont occur, because make slave factory is much cheaper and confort as make enginer swarm. And when occur then 10 buildpower is 2xT1 enginer assisting = 108 mass. That mean for 108mass have every units build in T3 land factory non standard numbers.

- Are ugly non-standard numbers something that matter?
-> No arent, i was wonder why it have weird number and dont understand why, but honestly, it dont change game.
- is 108 more mass that you need for 2xt1enginer something that matter?
->No arent. 108mass is on T3 nothing.
- Why then change it?
->Because 108mass is less as have ugly number for all units that is build on T3 factory. And because have this 10bp difference change balanca what was not suppost to be change.
- Why im sure about that it was not suppost to be change?
-> because man who change build power on T3 factory was also change harbringer and outhum build power to stay on same time (40s) as before this change, and corect they stat for be same as before this factory buff
- how it loks on other units?
-> percival/brick was discused and decided to nerf they build time for 75s and now have 66,66s
- change it balance?
-> probably slithery yes, but that 12% build time differences is nothing that player see when can build slave factory and build them in much bigger number as before engimode (and this +10bp buff)

so say me some normal, please normal and valuable argument, why dont correct it for standard number ?

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 20:30

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T20:15:51+02:00

Actually, your comparison makes no sense. The health numbers arent rounded, whilst the factory numbers get rounded down anyway. Like for say if the percival is actually 9312HP but the ingame health bar would round it to the nearest 100, nobody would care.. Heck this is the first post I see about this and engiemod has been out for what? Over a year? Maybe even two, I can't even remember.

I can kinda see why you want the numbers to be even but it's probably better to focus on bigger things for now.

Statistics: Posted by D4E_Omit — 15 Apr 2015, 20:15

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T20:07:00+02:00

omffffffffg. When acu would have 11486 hp ? Doest it mather that its 14hp less? none would see that it have 14hp less as 11500 would it be problem for balance have acu with 14less hp? NO! It would be same.

IceDreamer wrote:
ugly numbers are 100% meaningless

would it be good to change it -> for 11500 ? YES! and your argument line "NO because it change balance, and because none care about 14hp differences acu with 11486hp is actual perfectly balanced"

Would it be good have percival with 9312hp? brick with 8967 hp? pillar with 1513hp ? Woud it matther ? No its same.. would you want to change it? IM SURE THAT YES!

That stop be heroic defender of trash decision that ZEP do and was lazy finish it.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 20:07

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T19:52:15+02:00

The point, Ithilis, is that ugly numbers are 100% meaningless. The 'Patterns' from T1 to T2 to T3 are irrelevant. If you change them, balance will shift. The fact is that yes, you're right, changing them in the first place was not done scientifically, but there has been such a long time since then in which the game has been balanced around those figures, and the balance is now pretty good.

Ugly numbers should never be the trigger or influence for gameplay change. Gameplay should be the trigger, and while there are problems with gameplay, too much buildpower on T3 Land Factories is not one of them.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 15 Apr 2015, 19:52

Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T19:11:46+02:00

I'm not sure to understand most of what you're trying to say.

Are you saying that the problem is that numbers are not nice to look at ?
who looks at numbers ? it's units of time, who cares ?

As to predictions by "master players", is Rain Man amongst us ? If he is, I'm sure he can multiply and divide any kind of ugly number

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 15 Apr 2015, 19:11

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T18:03:14+02:00

ZLO_RD wrote:
Oh, ok, so if you change build time of units, that will change assit efficiency
and if you change factory build power, it will kinda change balance in a way that Ice_Dreamer said...

tbh i also do not like weird numbers

did you have notice some differences in balance when it come ? Im sure that not. because when you have cheap support factory. mount of 2t1 engy (108mass) absoluthly doesnt mater

Apofenas wrote:
Seriously? Ugly numbers? And what? I don't understand how is that can be the issue at all? Ofc if you don't want to see them, you could ask to mod FAF the way, so you personally would pay 1500 mass for percival and build it for 60 seconds, just because this number looks awesome, while everybody else would have things standard "ugly" way.

kiding ? You have NON STANDARD ->ugly way. This number is not standard, thas a reason why are ugly, standard it T2 factory where units cost -9m/s -45e/s or -60e/s T1 factory drain -4m/s -20e/s and any of then dont have something as -7,5685m/s or -203,54857685486 e/s why -> because its not standard!

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 18:03

Re: Ugly T3 land numbers

2015-04-15T18:18:17+02:00

Cmon people. i start be sick from this opinion..

this is pure mistake, what was done be zep - it is not by sacred supcom developer. It dont make any sense have build power what is not divisible by lower tech and what is not divisible by units build time. Also better is have 120 build power, because then it is divisible by lower tech. but then it need rewrite all units...

and no you would not have percival cost 1500 mas you would have percival cost maybe 1284 instead of 1280 (as you have pillar cost 197)-> when it stay on 90. or have it cost 1280 as its supost to be, but drain -16m/sec with 3,33333less second for build. This is not problem make, it would not change balance in any way. Like seriously, when this would be in some way in some mode all would screw whot the f*** was do it.. Why was then time of harbringer/outhum changed and titan and percival not? harb was before engimode built time that was 40s and now is also 40s. titan not. why ? because zep who do it, dont finish it, because its plenty of work rewrite all units

why its wrong as it is?
- because its ugly
- because it is also ugly on all non-divisible lower tech
- because when you would be master pro you cant precise calcul number of mex for number of factory, because all units drain different reasource.
- because its unpredictable -> did you know answer on my question how many second is needed for build titan/T3 artilery/brick?
- because isnt nothing for why it is good for

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 17:58