Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-05-09T19:15:58+02:00

KrogothFTW wrote:
You're still at a disadvantage sending smaller numbers of units over time than sending all at once.

???

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 09 May 2015, 19:15

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-05-09T08:20:12+02:00

keyser wrote:
btw if you build e for a obsidian, that he fight at front and die, you won't have to build e for the next obsidian.

You're still at a disadvantage sending smaller numbers of units over time than sending all at once.

Statistics: Posted by KrogothFTW — 09 May 2015, 08:20

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-04-15T05:43:16+02:00

Girls, girls, your all pretty, no need to Get in a cat fight. Now as for t2
My opinion:
Evensong should have an insane muzzle velocity, so it better against tmd and sniping movie units, 2hp is cheap tho
Hover tank should be a dedicated t1 killer and with shield should be an exhale by counter against mongoose. as for pillar, suck it up uef, t2 isn't your strong suit, and that's how it's meant to be, if u get to t3 the land game is often lost for everyone else unless we can manage to get an experimental out before Percevals come knocking on our door. Also if u can't micro mongeese it's your own falt, that is an AMAZING unit
Obsidian should be identical in cost to sera bot (not including energy), when fighting sera you should only build enough to survive until Harvingers start poping up, then u can win land. Overall all you can't have insane t2 land tho, your t1 an early t3 is so powerful that if u get a big t2 buff than there is nothing any other faction can do but board up and pray it won't be embarassing

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 15 Apr 2015, 05:43

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-30T17:31:12+02:00

btw if you build e for a obsidian, that he fight at front and die, you won't have to build e for the next obsidian.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 30 Mar 2015, 17:31

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-30T17:14:15+02:00

On personal shiled on obsidian/titan/harbrineger

have clever solution how to fix real mass cost differences from same price category units. and that is simply take energy upkeep to value: -1e/s on all of this units (=+3mass cost, what is pointless).

shield on units have some advantage, and some disadvantage.

advantage are:
- small regeneration of shield
- enemy dont see how hp units currently have
- bigger regeneration of shield when is destroyed (but it take long time)

disadvantage are:
- have half hp bonus from veterancy promotion
- impossible repair shield value
- more volunter against some weapon (absolver)
- when have negative energy balance units lose half of hp

we can discus about if are disadvantage bigger as advantage, but with deny energy upkeep, would it be whiteout resource differences, what is bigger disadvatage.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 30 Mar 2015, 17:14

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T22:16:17+02:00

Gorton wrote:
-You already have the ability to force an opponent to go early t2 land to even have a chance of defending your t1.
-An ACU can only defeat aeon t1 land with gun upgrades.
-At t2 air you can have swift winds to ensure air dominance

true, but on acu and auroras i need say, that when enemy have gun, then auroras fall down extremli quickly.

Everything that i ever say abut balance is about team-game, know that game was balanced for 1v1 (for example acu death was 45 000dmg) and on team game it make some problem that i try suggest some solution.

for example gunship in 1v1 are dangerous for destroy enemy eco, and push him to build flak, but on team game are all time someone who have some inties and flak near so its not so effective for deny eco. and when you are in front and decide go T2 air when enemy T2 land in teamgame you cant deal with it, so also must make T2 land.

Gorton wrote:
It's 144 mass for a unit that gives 3600 extra health to units with 140hp. Counting pgens is almost worthless since people usually will overflow energy in a small way anyway, or they can temporarily pause air production, and if they have t2 land then they probably have t2 power too...

when have T2 pgen then energy cost is 180+144=324mas you cant look on energy cost as when it dont exist, when you want to have shield then need have builded energy for upkeep or you have only ussles units with 100hp. that also main problem of obsidian that have e upkeep that people dont calculate in price, but then dont build so many energy and instead of can make another units. i write it here for obsidian because topic name, but it is total same for titan (480+60=520m) and harbringer(840+60=900m)

are this sugestion drastic?
-What i suggest is make them cost (same) with e upkeep calculation, that is designer for. 333+37,5 = 370 or 333+24=357 (when have T2 pgen) that is price as is obsidian supost to have, because everything about obsidian is calculate with price 360 and not 397 or 384 what is real price that someone must pay for him (or have units with 1250hp).
-Another suggestion is integrate domino target priority that fix problem that mean is dump thought go with obsidian (and another T2) near acu with OC. It help every fraction, but most aeon, because are most endangered against OC.
-last was lower reacharge time on shield, that is already bigger as is standard life of obsidian who one time receive dmg. But im able understant that this can be unfair for other who dont have shield, because it would be real advantage.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 23 Mar 2015, 22:16

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T21:29:36+02:00

Let's say something : The game is not balanced around teamgames.
It's balanced around 1v1. And mostly balanced for teamgames with notable exceptions.

What you addressed of my post :

-Obsidians are like reverse rangebots. Shorter range, if your opponent doesn't kite them they get absolutely destroyed. They are a very strong unit.
-Aeon player can rush t3 land with previous advantages and one harbringer will destroy everything you have with no chance of catching or killing it
-Aeon players can make more air because they don't have to make as much land early
-Your bombers STUN THINGS
-gunships are useful
-An ACU can only be in 1 place at one time. You have your own superior gun ACU.
-You have a very cheap way to block huge amounts of damage to fragile aurora or towards obsidian (t2 mobile shield)
-Aeon player can rush t3 land with previous advantages and one harbringer will destroy everything you have with no chance of catching or killing it

What you ignored :

-You already have the ability to force an opponent to go early t2 land to even have a chance of defending your t1.
-An ACU can only defeat aeon t1 land with gun upgrades.
-At t2 air you can have swift winds to ensure air dominance

So I'll address what you addressed

---
If you are making gunships, you don't send them at armies most of the time.
Snipe power. Snipe mexes. They are highly mobile, hit targets of value and fly away. Giving gunships a bunch of orders to attack an enemy and forcing him to place t2 flak everywhere....
Another point: People don't start with t2 land everywhere. Your opponent has to make it. While this is also true for t2 air, air is far more mobile. Also he has to preemptively make flaks.

---
Bombers - Why are we comparing an arty to a bomber exactly? You have a highly mobile unit that can do damage and stun clumps of units. It's useful. End of.

---
About having more air than your opponent:

-because they have weak T2 land and someone must do air, where have great swifts

This makes me think that you are talking about teamgames. It doesn't even change anything. If you are aeon vs non aeon, you can make less units on the ground in favour of air, that's basically fact.

---

- but then why you build T2 units? does it make game deeper and gameplay better? And on 10x10 map is total skip t2 risky

---
We can't change units arbitrarily because you think that the gameplay is less deep. It's not a balance issue.
You build t2 units to destroy enemy t2 when he makes it to counter you - as before, you have a large advantage because of your t1. It makes a larger t2 production than your opponent possible, or just a bit to defend while you go t3.

---

shield is not as cheap. it cost 425 mass for have 3600 hp shield. It is best aeon T2 units and i love it, but its not so good as it loks when copmapre it with units that can fire and cost less. It need very big mount of micro to have effective auroras against T2 spam

http://content.faforever.com/faf/unitsD ... 01,UAL0307

It's 144 mass for a unit that gives 3600 extra health to units with 140hp. Counting pgens is almost worthless since people usually will overflow energy in a small way anyway, or they can temporarily pause air production, and if they have t2 land then they probably have t2 power too...
For some comparison, aurora are 52 mass. So you have 3400 extra hp for the mass of 2-3 aurora. If that isn't worth it, then I don't know what is.

---

iswahor is 10% cheaper as obsidian, and have 10% less hp and 25% more range, and zero overkill. Obsidian is strong units. but very expensive and cant be used against acu. iswahor is much much better, for less cost

---
What does it matter that t2 bots are better? You have very strong t1 land, then you get a unit that's only weakness is some range - if you have them in range with t2 bots the t2 bots die. Same for any other t2 land. They are not weak in the slightest.
Basically, they are only weaker if your opponent micros well against them.

---

-thats true, but in team game, is mostly acu on right place and you cant avoid it. aeon acu and mercy is a reason why i play aeon, its aweasome, but still sera+uef is better (but different gameplay).

More teamgame thoughts.
In teamgames, acus are super OP anyway, so yes.

If you could address the other things I said that would be nice.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 23 Mar 2015, 21:29

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T21:03:41+02:00

keyser wrote:
Every time you speak ithilis, it's too buff an aeon unit. The more i listen to you, the more i get bored. You saying you trying to not have biaise, but i don't think it's true. Or at least you do way more for aeon than for the other faction.

ahh saize, is not good be boring. I suggest plenty of think, some of them become reality but most of them not.

for example outhum is absoluth crap, and imho would have half dps on range, brick more hp as percival, strong buff titans, range bots more muzzle, and aoe dmg, buff all hover tanks, not only aeons, nerf strat, nerf ahwasa, buf uef nano with more hp, allow build drone from uef acu by comand, nerf perci/brick for not have range+dps+hp together, get more speed on uef destroeyr, get more range on galaxy, nerf aeon double gun, buff cybran acu with more hp on stealth upgrade, buff uef T1/2bomber, that are total crap buff sera land exp - take explosion for comand, and allow dont destroy half of your army, nerf snipebility with mercy/beetles. And yes buff aeon stuff as czar, mml, obsidian, misile ship, chronodumper, sacu upgrades.
But realy dont want to make some fraction op, but bring more usable units, and some equality with stay on fraction diversity..

btw OPsidian cost more as T2,5 Ilsavoh, is then opsidian T2,6 units? Or what make units 2,5 or 3,5 tech, when not price? its same price category but one is significant stronger, becaus obsidian can have mobile shield. it make sense that sera bot is better, but imho price could be same it is too big problem when obsidian would cost 370 with comparing 360 for sera bot?

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 23 Mar 2015, 21:03

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T19:49:35+02:00

as aeon you to stay at T1 stage, if your opponent isn't going T2.
if he doesn't switch to T2 you win. (btw T2 bot can be dodge so easilly, it's funny to see)
When he goes T2, you just switch to T2 too, and spam obsidian that is a really good T2 unit against other T2 unit. (Not ilshavo, but ilshavo are T2.5 unit). (obsidian eat alive rhino)
rush T3 is ultra powerfull. Then you can do tons of damage on raiding on big map at T3 stage vs percy.
And when you have to deal with percy spam, you get GC.

Yes Aeon has weak timing (T3 -> T4 transition) but they have great period in the game (T1, or rush T3)

Every time you speak ithilis, it's too buff an aeon unit. The more i listen to you, the more i get bored. You saying you trying to not have biaise, but i don't think it's true. Or at least you do way more for aeon than for the other faction.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 23 Mar 2015, 19:49

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T19:10:58+02:00

Gorton"]-gunships are useful
-not against t2 land
Gorton"]-Your bombers STUN THINGS
-for 1,5s ,medusa also stun things for 2 sec and is about 50x more medusas in place as shrimers
Gorton"]-Aeon players can make more air because they don't have to make as much land early
-because they have weak T2 land and someone must do air, where have great swifts

Gorton"]-Aeon player can rush t3 land with previous advantages and one harbringer will destroy everything you have with no chance of catching or killing it
- but then why you build T2 units? does it make game deeper and gameplay better? And on 10x10 map is total skip t2 risky
Gorton"]-You have a very cheap way to block huge amounts of damage to fragile aurora or towards obsidian (t2 mobile shield)
shield is not as cheap. it cost 425 mass for have 3600 hp shield. It is best aeon T2 units and i love it, but its not so good as it loks when copmapre it with units that can fire and cost less. It need very big mount of micro to have effective auroras against T2 spam
Gorton"]-Obsidians are like reverse rangebots. Shorter range, if your opponent doesn't kite them they get absolutely destroyed. They are a very strong unit.
- iswahor is 10% cheaper as obsidian, and have 10% less hp and 25% more range, and zero overkill. Obsidian is strong units. but very expensive and cant be used against acu. iswahor is much much better, for less cost
Gorton"]-An ACU can only be in 1 place at one time. You have your own superior gun ACU
-thats true, but in team game, is mostly acu on right place and you cant avoid it. aeon acu and mercy is a reason why i play aeon, its aweasome, but still sera+uef is better (but different gameplay).
- auroras are also awesome, but its T1 units. that is very hard usable on T2.

Mephi wrote:
if aeon gets also a strong/imba t2 land then they are for sure the best race ever

they are, aeon general anihilate all renegates from only true faith and conques the galaxy!
Glory for the AEONs!!! FOR ETERNAL LIFE OF PRINCESS RHIANE BURKE!

all fraction have they own gameplay, for me is best aeon gameplay, because can have huge funn with gun comander, and dont must think about some booring stuff as good eco balance . I also play other fraction. And also see plenty of wrong thinks, that are full wtf -> serafin T3 is total master pointles. T4 land even worst, uef range bot glatning miss so hard, riplite is total crap agains everything that is not navy. T3 bomber, neverending turn of brick that half of time dont fire and only rotate and dance or ussles acu upgrades, and other stuff. Think that aeon and cybran have most healty blue print code of units, but aeon have more funny gameplay for me. I know that can have some kind of bias, that i try avoid (and to be fair i also suggest nerf acu double gun, because know how insine it can be), but still you dont think hover tanks are ussles against land, would not it be posible make it better?
isnt significant differences betwen iswahor and obsidian? Isnt aeon mml quite ussles ?

Dont wory i know that nothing that everyone suggest will not be reality, because comunity here is extremly consertavite and want preserve status quo, (funny is that my nick is ithili Quo ) So i at least complain about stuff that see as bad and that can be better.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 23 Mar 2015, 19:10

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T18:38:27+02:00

another balancethread by ithilis

if aeon gets also a strong/imba t2 land then they are for sure the best race ever
I think your feeling that aeon t2 land is up is caused by the fact you play almost only aeon as far as i know and you probably miss the dominance that aeon has in a lot of other situations. I felt the same way about mantis once when i almost played only cybran. But then i played uef for a while and that reminded me that the mantis is a relativly weak tank but a total speedy annoying unit.

maybe you should play a bit against aeon t2 land it is not as weak as you may think(OPsidians )

Statistics: Posted by Mephi — 23 Mar 2015, 18:38

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T18:23:54+02:00

Some points:

Land :
-You already have the ability to force an opponent to go early t2 land to even have a chance of defending your t1.
-An ACU can only defeat aeon t1 land with gun upgrades.
-An ACU can only be in 1 place at one time. You have your own superior gun ACU.
-Obsidians are like reverse rangebots. Shorter range, if your opponent doesn't kite them they get absolutely destroyed. They are a very strong unit.
-You have a very cheap way to block huge amounts of damage to fragile aurora or towards obsidian (t2 mobile shield)
-Aeon player can rush t3 land with previous advantages and one harbringer will destroy everything you have with no chance of catching or killing it

Then Air :
-Aeon players can make more air because they don't have to make as much land early
-Your bombers STUN THINGS
-At t2 air you can have swift winds to ensure air dominance
-gunships are useful

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 23 Mar 2015, 18:23

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T18:04:07+02:00

Neutrino wrote:
If attacking an acu with Obsidians is it not possible to use spread move before engaging to mitigate the risk of losing multiple units to overcharge?

they have very low range and speed, that mean you have no place for spread if click attack on acu. when you dont order atack on acu, they can be spreaded, but then they have target priority for all other untis as acu, and you waste so many shot for some other staff, and lose most of comand that you want to take on your unit.
And still when you lose one, it is as lose 2 pillar, lose one is big pain, but its not rare when you lose 3. That is a main problem -> big price. That units cant be much cheaper, because is very strong. i know it, but only on moment when dont force acu with OC or PD creep (eversong is crap) what is pretty comon.

you can see it on map when you can not avoid enemy acu/pd as is for example sirtis major. Aeon are on non air spot total ussles. you can build obsidian, that imediatly die, or balze that have half units ratio as pilar/rhino = half effectivity = waste 50% of mass because you are aeon. mml is not efective break pd defense, and you are done. you simply dotn have T2 units that can be effective on place where is enemy acu or pd creep.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 23 Mar 2015, 18:04

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T17:49:59+02:00

Blazes might be weak, but they are still very useful in niche situations where their cost and weakness relative to core land units is mitigated, and used at the right times they can be devastating. A concrete example: Saltrock Colony neither player has invested heavily in Navy, at T2 one player goes T2 core land, the other counters with T2 hover (or amphib). Now the guy with the hover can circumnavigate the island destroying the other guy's eco while avoiding any fights where he does not have sufficient numbers advantage in the area to offset the weaker hover units, after pursuing that strategy for a while he ends up with a decisive numbers advantage because of the damage to the other guys eco.

I'd always presumed that was how the hover/amphib units were intended to be used. Hoverspam is imo borderline imba vs navy but if you use speed alone to address that balance then you hurt the very thing that gives the hover/amphib units their flexibility.

It's always struck me as odd that hover/amphib units like the Riptide and Wagner should be faster, better armoured and do more damage then their equivalent core land units. I'd be interested to experiment with nerfing the damage/armour values of Riptide and Wagner so that the Pillar and Rhino have better armour and do more damage while the Riptide and Wagner remain faster and then even out the cost. In that scenario the Blaze would no longer be the odd man out and navy would rightfully rule the waves.

If attacking an acu with Obsidians is it not possible to use spread move before engaging to mitigate the risk of losing multiple units to overcharge?

Statistics: Posted by Neutrino — 23 Mar 2015, 17:49

Re: Aeon T2 land stuff

2015-03-23T15:06:42+02:00

I kind of like the Obsidians as they are, TBH. Short range, yes, but run for your lives when they close in.
Evensongs are simply unremarkable.
However, I do agree in regard of Blazes, they are just soooo weak, dealing no damage at all. A bit of health wouldn't hurt too.

Statistics: Posted by da_monstr — 23 Mar 2015, 15:06