Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Othuum Design

2015-03-04T11:27:37+02:00

Good points

I'd still be very keen on feedback on the Othuum tweak I put together. I think one person has tried it.....

I think it addresses a lot issues spoken in the thread without being ridiculous or using gimmicks. It's also actually working and could foster discussion based on a working concept instead of endless theory crafting

Statistics: Posted by Korbah — 04 Mar 2015, 11:27

Re: Othuum Design

2015-03-04T07:48:51+02:00

One of the things that interests me about this discussion is how little people seem to understand balancing. People are asking for large sweeping changes to the Othuum to balance it, when only very small changes are needed. One needs to remember it has by far the highest dps/mass ratio. This makes increasing it's range to match that of the Percy or Brick possible only if that ratio is significantly reduced. so to balance a range increase the DPS either needs to be significantly reduced, or the cost significantly increased to balance.

Another problem I see is the communities disturbing tendency to look at units in isolation. What I mean by this is the tendency to look at the raw stats of the percy and saying "Well obviously this unit is stronger than other t3, so it is unbalanced". The problem with this approach is that people are forgetting that the UEF are the ONLY faction without a direct-fire experimental. Essentially the Percy must fill the role of frontline threat all by itself.

The same is not true of the Othuum, it should never be used in isolation. At early t3 it should be used in conjunction with the powerful Sera t3 mobile shield. This means it should close the distance against the slower Percy/Bricks while taking few losses due to shielding, at which point the greater dps/mass ratio and equal hp/mass ratio comes into play fully. In a more standoff situation in t3 (where neither force is actually engaging just standing off and building up forces) the Sniper bot should be used to do either start whittling the enemy down or to force an engagement.Once the game starts to move into mid to late t3 stage then the Ythotha should be being built to mix in amongst the Othuums (Remeber to seprate the Ythotha if it is about to die, preferrable by charging it in amongst the enemy) .

Honestly, the only real problem I think actually exists with the Othuum in regards to balance is it's non-arcing projectile, and the height of it's turret. The Othuum becomes far more susceptible to firing into terrain than the other t3 frontline units. The rest of the perceived "balance" issues are really more about people using the Othuum in isolation, instead of in conjunction with the t3 shield, Ythotha, and to a smaller extent the sniper bot. The shield is WHY the Othuum has shorter range, and why it is balanced with this short range. With increased range combined with it's faster speed, and the t3 mobile shield, the Othuum would become oppressively powerful, and in fact completely unbeatable in early tech3 stage of the game when used correctly. I do mean COMPLETELY unbeatable when I say this. Given two players of equal skill, one Sera and one any other faction, Othuums ("rebalanced" with equal/similiar range to Percy/brick) + t3 shields could not lose any egagement at equal or even inferior mass investment.

In conclusion, increasing the range on the Othuum is an extremely dangerous way to balance the unit. It NEEDS shorter range, due to the t3 mobile shield advantage of Sera. The real problem is the low profile of the unit and non-arcing shot causing issues with terrain and the underuse of the t3 shield in forces of Othuums to allow them to close to range with their faster speed while taking minimal losses where their greater dps/mass wins.

Statistics: Posted by Seraphblade — 04 Mar 2015, 07:48

Re: Othuum Design

2015-03-02T17:32:49+02:00

I've added chain-lightning to the tank... will test then upload shortly.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 02 Mar 2015, 17:32

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-27T23:25:19+02:00

Problem with the type of game balance your advocating is that this makes FA just another Rock, Paper, Scissors RTS.

Starcraft 2, from where a transforming gunship unit can be found, is a rock/paper/scissors RTS. That's because a Colossus specifically beats marines, a Valkyrie specifically beats the Colossus, Stalkers specifically beat the Valkyrie, and so on. You see very little honest skirmishing in Starcraft 2 because if you try to skirmish with only marines in the mid game, they'd be hard countered by a single Colossus so hard you may as well have spent all the resources on gaft and corruption to build your commander a personal mansion.

A rock/paper/scissors RTS forces players to wait until they have their deathballs all ready in a big blob so they can attack with the Colossus, Stalkers, Immortals, and everything else, so they won't be wiped out by a particular unit designed to hard counter something in their composition. It's like dominoes, in Starcraft 2. You lose all your stalkers and then the Valkyries kill all your Colossi. All the Colossi die, and then they kill all your immortals with their marines. If you didn't build stalkers in the first place, you instantly lose. You need rock, paper, and scissors at all times to deal with their rock, paper, and scissors, and each unit is a highly specialized rock, paper, scissors, or whatever. The Colossus is rock and it beats scissors, which are marines.

In Supreme Commander, the armies are designed to deal with broader categories of threats. A Mantis does not specifically counter an artillery unit, really. It can and does because it's fast and has a higher rate of fire, but aside from countering artillery, the Mantis is the Cybran's basic assault unit, and it's used for a wide variety of things. Typically, the counter to one guy's basic assault unit is to build more of your own basic assault units, or to throw in air support if you've got it and that's viable. Occasionally you have units meant to specifically counter a thing, such as TMDs to deter TMLs, but there's really never a good sense of rock/paper/scissor.

I think what codepants is saying is not that every unit needs a hard counter, but that units shouldn't be so versatile that they require six different things on hand to keep them under control.

Look at this thing. Stealth, shield breaking, flight, option to switch to ground, and chain lightning. How do you deal with something that insanely versatile? So let's suppose this thing lands at your back door and starts shooting up power generators, so you send a few Loyalists to deal with it. Well, the Kykhu just takes to the sky. Now you've diverted Loyalists to a place with no enemies in it. Now I've got to scramble a few ASFs, but then you just land the unit over in another part of my base before I can get ASFs to it. Now I divert Loyalists again, and instead of fighting, you just take off again like last time. Or to be more concise, this unit forces me to divert both ASFs and Loyalists just to catch it. Not counter it, mind you, since nothing got close enough to trade shots with it.

Then, how about if you get this thing early on and your opponent is still using a mix of T1 and T2 units, leaning towards T2 and about to transition to T3. Well, the chain lightning is great. Not only can this unit be anywhere it needs to be at any time, letting it drop behind armies if it desires, but it's actually better against groups than it is against single opponents. You'll use chain lightning to kill all these lighter units at once. Then what happens when they make the transition to T3? Well that's okay, because the Kykhu has a missile that loads a large chunk of its DPS in the alpha strike, so it can threaten those too, and in the case of very heavy units like bricks, the Kykhu can be way more agile because it's also a gunship sometimes.

On larger maps, this thing would be infuriating. Imagine having to deploy squads of ASFs and ground forces every time you see the stupid things. Not because the ground forces can kill them, but just because if you don't deploy both, they will switch to whatever mode you can't deal with. Surely, the counter here would be to track them on radar and see where they're going to try to land next, so you can scramble fighters and catch them in the air where they have no weapons, but you gave them stealth. In the hands of a skilled player, this unit would be an evasive, nigh-unkillable bastard.

Not only that, but because they can switch to ground, you won't be punished for overcommiting to these things if you lack air control. Normally, if you spam gunships and then don't have ASFs or inties to keep them safe, the gunships will get swatted and you can overwhelmed by ground forces. Not so with the Kykhu, which remains a decent combatant on the ground regardless. I know that Cybran can do stealth drops, but of course they don't get mobile shields to balance that, and the stealth generators take up space on the transport. The stealth generators themselves also don't have any weapons.

If used in a hostile, productive manner, these things would dominate the game. You cannot balance them. As long as they're capable of being dangerous for their cost, their absurd versatility will make them better than any other unit. If you make them too weak to threaten anything, nobody would ever build them. It's just too much. This is why multirole aircraft tend to do far worse jobs than their specialized counterparts, because they can manage many things but do few of them well. If you wanted a unit like this in the game, the only way for it to be fair is if it does all of its countless jobs very poorly.

I mean, think, if it were possible, why wouldn't all the factions build flying, stealth Loyalists/Harbingers/Titans that can penetrate shields and kill enemy squads with lightning that jumps from unit to unit? The Kykhu is insane.

Statistics: Posted by Flamingo — 27 Feb 2015, 23:25

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-26T18:47:01+02:00

The biggest thing I've noticed when comparing the Othuum to other T3 assault units is its vision range. It's "22" when the Bricks / Percival's are "26".

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 26 Feb 2015, 18:47

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T22:07:57+02:00

ZeRen wrote:
Korbah wrote:Ok I've uploaded the Othuum mod to the vault

search: "Othuum Rework Mod"

It's obviously just to get an idea of what's possible and we can easily tweak it more - but I'd love people's initial thoughts!

interesting turret maybe higher fire rate? just bit

Still fires at original rate

Statistics: Posted by Korbah — 25 Feb 2015, 22:07

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T21:14:45+02:00

codepants wrote:
Resin_Smoker wrote:So no one is interested in seeing this as a standalone mod just to try it out?

Reisn

I agree with whoever said x pages ago that the unit you've created is a "super unit." Most units in supcom (indeed, I can't think of one that breaks this pattern) have at most two weapons and a special ability (some naval units might have three including anti-torp stuff). Furthermore, those two weapons are usually made to attack the same kind of unit, like the Mongoose, for attacking T1. Even experimentals like the Chicken that have three weapons really only "specialize" in one type of attack (for the Chicken, area attack on medium-strength units -- you can't simultaneously fire the machine gun at t1 and the energy ball at t3, it's all or nothing). A monkeylord has AA, sure, but it won't ward off any serious air attacks.

Don't get me wrong, it's a very cool unit. It's clear that you're very passionate about it and put a lot of time into it. But in making it so special you've made it unspecialized, and there is little place for that in late game supcom. Every unit has its place, and your unit... does everything -- even if it does everything only a little.

The Mongoose is one example of a good "special" unit; so is the Absolver: Huge range, great against shields (2000 damage?), but 50 damage against everything else. It does one thing really well. Your unit has shield piercing missiles and chain lightning and it can fly and...

Also, I'm not sure how we'd go about balancing a transforming unit. The need for a transport has always meant you must have air and ground control to do a drop effectively (or use stealth); it also means you only have to shoot down one transport to kill a handful of units. I don't think a transforming unit is out of the question but even if we could balance it (ahah, you did a drop right in the middle of my base because I had no AA, and even though I shot down one flying thing, it wasn't carrying the other five!), I don't think it would have a bajillion other special abilities as well.

In short, the great thing about supcom is that every unit is good at only a few things and has an effective counter... your unit is good at many things and has basically no counter.

Problem with the type of game balance your advocating is that this makes FA just another Rock, Paper, Scissors RTS.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 25 Feb 2015, 21:14

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-26T00:41:01+02:00

You can alter any unit in-game via the shift-F6 console command. Just be suse to select the unit in question before opening the console and then re spawn a new unit after making your changes. It's a quick way to test Blueprint changes without having to create a mod.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 25 Feb 2015, 21:12

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T20:39:51+02:00

Resin_Smoker wrote:
So no one is interested in seeing this as a standalone mod just to try it out?

Reisn

I agree with whoever said x pages ago that the unit you've created is a "super unit." Most units in supcom (indeed, I can't think of one that breaks this pattern) have at most two weapons and a special ability (some naval units might have three including anti-torp stuff). Furthermore, those two weapons are usually made to attack the same kind of unit, like the Mongoose, for attacking T1. Even experimentals like the Chicken that have three weapons really only "specialize" in one type of attack (for the Chicken, area attack on medium-strength units -- you can't simultaneously fire the machine gun at t1 and the energy ball at t3, it's all or nothing). A monkeylord has AA, sure, but it won't ward off any serious air attacks.

Don't get me wrong, it's a very cool unit. It's clear that you're very passionate about it and put a lot of time into it. But in making it so special you've made it unspecialized, and there is little place for that in late game supcom. Every unit has its place, and your unit... does everything -- even if it does everything only a little.

The Mongoose is one example of a good "special" unit; so is the Absolver: Huge range, great against shields (2000 damage?), but 50 damage against everything else. It does one thing really well. Your unit has shield piercing missiles and chain lightning and it can fly and...

Also, I'm not sure how we'd go about balancing a transforming unit. The need for a transport has always meant you must have air and ground control to do a drop effectively (or use stealth); it also means you only have to shoot down one transport to kill a handful of units. I don't think a transforming unit is out of the question but even if we could balance it (ahah, you did a drop right in the middle of my base because I had no AA, and even though I shot down one flying thing, it wasn't carrying the other five!), I don't think it would have a bajillion other special abilities as well.

In short, the great thing about supcom is that every unit is good at only a few things and has an effective counter... your unit is good at many things and has basically no counter.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 25 Feb 2015, 20:39

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T19:52:48+02:00

Korbah wrote:
Ok I've uploaded the Othuum mod to the vault

search: "Othuum Rework Mod"

It's obviously just to get an idea of what's possible and we can easily tweak it more - but I'd love people's initial thoughts!

interesting turret maybe higher fire rate? just bit

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 25 Feb 2015, 19:52

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T17:44:16+02:00

Ok I've uploaded the Othuum mod to the vault

search: "Othuum Rework Mod"

It's obviously just to get an idea of what's possible and we can easily tweak it more - but I'd love people's initial thoughts!

Statistics: Posted by Korbah — 25 Feb 2015, 17:44

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T14:08:33+02:00

Resin_Smoker wrote:
codepants wrote:I definitely agree with the premise. The only thing Sera has once percie spam starts is the chicken. "Seige tanks" should be made for seiging; if anything they are currently the sera version of a titan while percies are the real "Seige tanks:" Fast, maneuvrable, long range, tanky.

Not sure about the exact stats -- they shouldn't be made invincible and given the cost of percies I'm okay with them being the "best" t3 unit -- but maybe comparable range to percies and bricks, a small health buff and a small damage buff would help balance them?

I guess I'm still confused how they are balanced in the first place -- maybe if we could establish that we could better establish how to "fix" whatever is currently unfixed.

I had offered to add the 4DC transforming bot (T3) to FAF but Icedreamer though it to be a bad idea.

Kykhu Oss Transformable assault bot brings a formidable tool to the Seraphim commander's arsenal. This heavily-armed but slow walker is able to transform into an unarmed air unit for insertion deep behind enemy lines... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBlk8mlYzI&feature=g-all-u&context=G2d89020FAAAAAAAAMAA

The Kykhu Oss comes with the following abilities:
- Chainlighting gun. (Yes his means the bolt can jump between units)
- Pulse cannon.
- Shield piercing missile.
- Can transform and fly. (About as fast as a gunship)
- Radar invisible when in air mode.

Note: the phasing ability would be removed to make it compatible with FAF. If folks are interested I can post a few pics later.

Cheers!

Resin

So no one is interested in seeing this as a standalone mod just to try it out?

Reisn

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 25 Feb 2015, 14:08

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T10:17:25+02:00

Ok - took more than 2 tweaks

However, I've now got the othuum functioning in a unique and interesting way that isn't grossly overpowered with my brief testing.

Main cannon now fires a slow 1.5 AoE projectile over a low arc and has some randomness to make it miss a bit. Same dps/firerate stats as before. Range is now 35 from 32. Also made the firing animation a lot more dramatic - it looks like a tank with an arty piece on top now.

Functionally, it's going to be good against huge blobs due to the aoe but easy to dodge with micro - slow turret turn rate and slow projectile. The main cannon will be good for shelling bases once the shields are down and good against experimentals due to the increased range.

Balance wise it's easy to tweak:
- more range makes it more like mini-arty (similar to a tanky fat rocketbot), less makes it closer to how it is currently in FAF.
- too good main cannon dps? increase randomness of firing +/- decrease AoE

Feel wise it definitely has more character even in this early stage.

I'll put together a mini-mod and upload it to vault (once I work out how) if people are interested.

Statistics: Posted by Korbah — 25 Feb 2015, 10:17

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T07:26:28+02:00

Deering wrote:
The loyalist is a siege assault bot. So having siege in the name of the othuum doesn't mean much.

True - but the loyalist is an interesting unit. Moreover, cybran also has the brick which permits a different playstyle. The combination of these two choices gives cybran a lot more options. Answering your question directly - the loyalist should be renamed to simply assault bot as that's how it functions and performs with far less siege emphasis than say the brick.

I was merely trying to highlight a way of making the othuum more interesting by adding a siege orientated proficiency without making the unit overshadow bricks/percies/harbs - in fact this change would distinctly differentiate it from the percy/harb/brick and wouldn't affect balance greatly unless facing closely packed masses. There's no doubt many ways to alter the unit - my change alters 1 or 2 variables in one weapon file but could dramatically alter the feel and utility of the unit. I'll test it out in a mini-mod and report back.

The issue is that othuum is bland as plain flour and that there's no reason why it couldn't be more interesting without wrecking t3 balance.

Statistics: Posted by Korbah — 25 Feb 2015, 07:26

Re: Othuum Design

2015-02-25T06:26:35+02:00

That has been stated before in the thread, and it needs to be stated again.

The Othuum should NOT be directly in line with the percival and the brick. If it was, sera would become impossible to face on a lot of landmaps, like badlands due to the fact that the chickenbot is the most powerful t2 direct fire unit.

Small buff to give sera more of a chance at t3 = Fine, but remember sera should be coming out of the t2 stage at an advantage, due to chicken bots, and the othuum balance needs to reflect that.

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 25 Feb 2015, 06:26