Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-20T13:26:23+02:00

Mycen wrote:
And a Novax is the same price as a Fatboy, so if you can build one of those you can generally build a Novax to dramatically increase the effectiveness of your already large artillery investment.

Wut? It is no any near to be dramatic increace of effectiveness. If you build 2 arty with pgens, you will probably get 1.5 more outcome for same mass.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 20 Jan 2015, 13:26

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-20T12:08:08+02:00

Mycen wrote:
zeroAPM wrote:And get 400 strats (or 6 Monkeylords or what have you) in the face while you're building not one but two structures only to knock down the shields, gotcha

Ah, yes. This nonsense argument again, awesome.

Unless you're going to tell me you've never played Setons (or Gap, or any of the other stupid choke maps that are so popular on faf) how about you address the topic at hand instead of pretending that you always can end the game with strats.

He's the one talking about building T3 artillery, so obviously the air war or more conventional T4 attacks are already not working. You do realize that you can only build about forty starts for the cost of a T3 arty, not four hundred, right? If you're not losing the air war, that's not too hard to defend against (especially if your ACU is protected from Strats. Ever heard of water?) And a Novax is the same price as a Fatboy, so if you can build one of those you can generally build a Novax to dramatically increase the effectiveness of your already large artillery investment.

And since it needs pointing out again, apparently: You don't build these units while you're doing an eco race with your opponent, you build them once you've won a battle and can use their reclaim. You shouldn't be building T3 artillery while they're building strats and monkeylords, you should be building T3 artillery out of their strats and monkeylords.

I only have enough time and/or bandwidth to watch replays, does it count?

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 20 Jan 2015, 12:08

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-20T00:38:38+02:00

when we make novax satelite faster as super slow (6 is super slow) and give more aoe dps, then it can be perffect weapon against army, dont break shield, but can be wery annying. Already nowax is so slow that it make him on biger map ussles.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 20 Jan 2015, 00:38

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-20T00:18:32+02:00

If we recall my original hatred for novax was its utter uselessness on many maps unless they were larger maps like setons or >20x20
Considering that uef already have an xp that is for those and other factions have in general more useful/utilitarian xp i dont like it

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 20 Jan 2015, 00:18

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-19T20:23:44+02:00

zeroAPM wrote:
And get 400 strats (or 6 Monkeylords or what have you) in the face while you're building not one but two structures only to knock down the shields, gotcha

Ah, yes. This nonsense argument again, awesome.

Unless you're going to tell me you've never played Setons (or Gap, or any of the other stupid choke maps that are so popular on faf) how about you address the topic at hand instead of pretending that you always can end the game with strats.

He's the one talking about building T3 artillery, so obviously the air war or more conventional T4 attacks are already not working. You do realize that you can only build about forty starts for the cost of a T3 arty, not four hundred, right? If you're not losing the air war, that's not too hard to defend against (especially if your ACU is protected from Strats. Ever heard of water?) And a Novax is the same price as a Fatboy, so if you can build one of those you can generally build a Novax to dramatically increase the effectiveness of your already large artillery investment.

And since it needs pointing out again, apparently: You don't build these units while you're doing an eco race with your opponent, you build them once you've won a battle and can use their reclaim. You shouldn't be building T3 artillery while they're building strats and monkeylords, you should be building T3 artillery out of their strats and monkeylords.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 19 Jan 2015, 20:23

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-18T14:33:15+02:00

And get 400 strats (or 6 Monkeylords or what have you) in the face while you're building not one but two structures only to knock down the shields, gotcha

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 18 Jan 2015, 14:33

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-18T10:32:30+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
Satelite: Basicly this unit has more DPS/mass than seraphim and cybran artilery. But it can't be adjusted by t3 pgens, so satelite ends up in disadvantage in base killing compare to arties. It also has far worse ability to break through shields.

What I would suggest is absolver effect, so it would have 50-75(enter your number here)% more DPS, but only against shields. In that case this unit would compete with other options and we would see novax unit more often.

The Novax is perfectly fine how it is. The Novax is a support unit. It is not meant to blast through shields by itself, nor should it be able to. Remember, like T3 arty, there is no way to block Novax damage aside from shields. Unlike artillery, it is 100% accurate. If it could punch through shields on its own you wouldn't see them "more often", you would see them every game, because they would be unstoppable.

If you're finding that it isn't as useful versus shielded bases as T3 artillery, then try using it properly instead of misusing it:

Use the Novax against unshielded targets and for uninterrupted LOS.

Use T3 artillery against heavily shielded bases.

Use a T3 artillery and a Novax together to totally obliterate even heavily shielded bases with little trouble. The artillery knocks down the shields, then the Novax destroys the shield generators, then the SMD, then the ACU.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 18 Jan 2015, 10:32

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-18T12:23:17+02:00

Vee wrote:
Agreed on the SCU rebuild bugs.

I think the problem with cybran shields can be sufficiently solved by having a single button that queues up all the upgrades. Because of UI lag it's very annoying to queue up all upgrades. IMO it is actually nice for faction diversity that upgrading to ED5 is less efficient than other factions T3 shields, but when it upgrades it goes to full HP.

it exist - eco mod

option to build ED5 on T3 is just better, it could be whole new building with same stats and model, if there is problem
BUT it all so would have to has similar cost, becouse you know no upgrading= no refill shield hp

edit:similar cost to UEF shield for example

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 17 Jan 2015, 22:46

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T16:51:34+02:00

Agreed on the SCU rebuild bugs.

I think the problem with cybran shields can be sufficiently solved by having a single button that queues up all the upgrades. Because of UI lag it's very annoying to queue up all upgrades. IMO it is actually nice for faction diversity that upgrading to ED5 is less efficient than other factions T3 shields, but when it upgrades it goes to full HP.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 17 Jan 2015, 16:51

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T16:09:37+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
You like faction diversity but then on nomad balance forum rage because nomad acu has 150 dmg every 1.5 sec instead of 100/1. That makes perfect sence.

i was never rage about have 150dmg per shot on acu, i was rage for have 93,75 dps on acu, instaed of 100. and have 2400 dps on owercharge instead of 3600. And is big differences when it is on ACU - primar units that everyone everitime use, or on T3 artilery that is use in every hundred game

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 17 Jan 2015, 16:09

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T14:33:07+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Spoiler: show
I think that its ok, you can reclaim your arty and make new on range of aeon arty. It sound stupid, but price would be only 3K mass more what is 5%differences. Cybran T3 arty is much better against army/navy as aeon have 90%more aoe, what can then aeon do? Thay can build super extra expensive salvation = whiteout paragon cant. and cybran would win every artilery fight with scatis. on short range. Its that ok ? yes it is.

i would think that T2 arty and T3 mobile woul be better if would have different range. sniper bots have different range, tanks have different range. Why every fraction cross galaxy would make artilery that have exaktli the same range when work on different principes? fraction diversity. Someone is better against army, antoher against base.

You like faction diversity but then on nomad balance forum rage because nomad acu has 150 dmg every 1.5 sec instead of 100/1. That makes perfect sence. Such strong and very usefull units need to be as much even as possible. Most turtle or turtle breaking stuff have same range, unless it's something unique for faction. T1 pds, t2 pds, t2 arty, t1 arty,, t2 mmls, t3 mobile arty, ect has even range. Yes there are differences with costs, dps, hp, stat tweaks, ect. But range is even in all cases. But than most powerful non-unique turtle weapon has these much differences?

Best stat for t3 stationary arty is dps and accuracy in which aeon is best. AOE for cybran arty is only usefull to kill engineers near factories(say thanks to engy mod here) and sometimes ground fire something underwater, but even in that case enormous firing randomness should be taken into account. Firing at armies is just useless, if anybody would do that, it would be in desperate, but that means arty wouldn't fire cause of inner range ring; it also needs to actually hit unit and if it's under at least t2 mobile shield, than unit gets only ~1k damage, cause arty doesn't have good enough damage.

In arty vs arty such questionable advantage as "vs units" don't matter. Cybran arty vs aeon. Accuracy and dps, arty hp and shield hp - everything is better for aeon. Even in close range aeon arty is far better. That's why i don't see any reason to add here huge range advantage/disadvantage.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 17 Jan 2015, 14:33

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T12:56:11+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
If you build arty first, and than aeon player builds arty with big delay and starts bombing you from out of range, is that ok? T2 arties have same range, t3 mobile arty also has same range. Why should t3 stationary arties have different? AOE, firing randomness, rate of fire and way damage is done is enough difference.

I think that its ok, you can reclaim your arty and make new on range of aeon arty. It sound stupid, but price would be only 3K mass more what is 5%differences. Cybran T3 arty is much better against army/navy as aeon have 90%more aoe, what can then aeon do? Thay can build super extra expensive salvation = whiteout paragon cant. and cybran would win every artilery fight with scatis. on short range. Its that ok ? yes it is.

i would think that T2 arty and T3 mobile woul be better if would have different range. sniper bots have different range, tanks have different range. Why every fraction cross galaxy would make artilery that have exaktli the same range when work on different principes? fraction diversity. Someone is better against army, antoher against base.

What i dont like is that T3 arty is game ender, and is no effective way how to defeans. its not so funny creep with artilerys instead of use armys. i would like much more if static artilery T2/T3 would be cheaper and would not break well shielded base. and would be for defense instead of for attack as it is now. Artilery shield creep is not funn. its only continual frustration whith shield explode, and if artilery miss when shield go out or not and another shot would be last.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 17 Jan 2015, 12:56

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T12:07:42+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
T3 arty range differences. I like fraction diversity and different range. And think that can be more range differences in game. cybran have also better land units as aeon, and build preccise big artilery is not a cybran style. Btw is a good when T3 artilery is a game ender? would not be game better when would be effective defense against T3 arty and game would must be end with army instead of creeping?

If you build arty first, and than aeon player builds arty with big delay and starts bombing you from out of range, is that ok? T2 arties have same range, t3 mobile arty also has same range. Why should t3 stationary arties have different? AOE, firing randomness, rate of fire and way damage is done is enough difference.

satelite - not sure if with absolwver effect on satelite would not be OP. It is relative cheap units and after this it change to shield breaker for artilery. what about change speed to be faster units, and give him more area of damage, to be more effective against army ? (+reduce crazy crash damage! on units that is not posible to destroy)

Only way to make it more effective against units is to give it direct buff of DPS, which is not a good thing. What i'm talking about is to give small absolver effect so it would have 300-350 dps to shields to overwhelm shield regen -> more effective against bases, but when it would fire units without hsields, it would only have 200 dps as now.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 17 Jan 2015, 12:07

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T11:50:29+02:00

in past i have one suggestion about shield so i post it here.

- let shield linked with Pgens have some advantage as have artilery. no only energy discount. probably faster regeneration shield, or faster reload time.

about cybran shield. In past here was suggestion for posibility to build ED5 imediatly, from ED1. and shield start automatick upgrade every stage.
It will looks liek on shield are 4 posible upgrade ED2/3/4/5 , and after chose upgrade start make first upg ED2 then ed3 etc.. automatick.

T3 arty range differences. I like fraction diversity and different range. And think that can be more range differences in game. cybran have also better land units as aeon, and build preccise big artilery is not a cybran style. Btw is a good when T3 artilery is a game ender? would not be game better when would be effective defense against T3 arty and game would must be end with army instead of creeping?

satelite - not sure if with absolwver effect on satelite would not be OP. It is relative cheap units and after this it change to shield breaker for artilery. what about change speed to be faster units, and give him more area of damage, to be more effective against army ? (+reduce crazy crash damage! on units that is not posible to destroy)

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 17 Jan 2015, 11:50

Re: Structure balance

2015-01-17T11:03:40+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
Ground firing to increace range of units: This affects t2 point defences and t3 point defences.
...
Can this problems be solved somehow? Like with projectile life time, or weapon arch?
...

Projectile lifetime is a viable solution that's already available in game and used on some projectiles (torpedoes for example).

Statistics: Posted by Brute51 — 17 Jan 2015, 11:03