Forged Alliance Forever

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-04T10:04:01+02:00

With most conventional projectiles and weapons this is not a good idea. Not only because of variable damage and remaining unit HP. But also because of firing tolerance and the possibility of some projectiles missing their target. In many situations overkill is desired to ensure that the target is destroyed.

Perhaps one exception is TMD, and I would support OKC for TMD. Particularly as Cybran and Aeon TMD have an instantaneous effect. Overkill is the main cause of UEF and Seraphim TMD inefficiency.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jan 2015, 10:04

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T22:13:36+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
Right, what happens when a unit misses in that case?

Does it check if a unit is actually dead after it's supposed to die since more than a lethal amount of damage is being fired at it?

Once a projectile is fired its fired and yes projectiles that miss get cleared.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 03 Jan 2015, 22:13

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T22:08:22+02:00

Right, what happens when a unit misses in that case?

Does it check if a unit is actually dead after it's supposed to die since more than a lethal amount of damage is being fired at it?

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 03 Jan 2015, 22:08

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T22:11:48+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
Well yes of course, we could potentially specify how many shots from weapon x it takes to kill unit y, but there are so many possible combinations, (n. of units * n. of weapons), to be exact, that it's just not practical, and one entity can only have one DesiredShooterCap value.

Example: It would take 3 shots from a Thaam to kill a LAB, but 10 shots from a Mantis to kill the same LAB. What do you set the DesiredShooterCap to in this case?

Also keep in mind that even if we could figure out how to do the above math and incorporate it into a dynamic DesiredShooterCap value for units, shots can miss frequently when targeting units due to unit micro, whereas SMD never misses a nuke.

No you misunderstand.... Only after controlling the number of attackerA via DesiredShootersCap as a simplified OKC.

However your method had already been done and works as follows:

1)Target unit has a table with the amount of incoming damage and list of attackers.

2) When an attacker is about to fire on our target, the incoming (potential) damage is added to the targets table along with the firing units ID.

3) If the (total combined) incoming damage is greater than the targets current health, force the firing unit to re-target.

Please keep in mid hat his assumes that each and every shot will always hit if fired. Hence it's also necessary to removed the incoming damage that doesn't impact.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 03 Jan 2015, 22:06

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T21:54:21+02:00

Well yes of course, we could potentially specify how many shots from weapon x it takes to kill unit y, but there are so many possible combinations, (n. of units * n. of weapons), to be exact, that it's just not practical, and one entity can only have one DesiredShooterCap value.

Example: It would take 3 shots from a Thaam to kill a LAB, but 10 shots from a Mantis to kill the same LAB. What do you set the DesiredShooterCap to in this case?

Also keep in mind that even if we could figure out how to do the above math and incorporate it into a dynamic DesiredShooterCap value for units, shots can miss frequently when targeting units due to unit micro, whereas SMD never misses a nuke.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 03 Jan 2015, 21:54

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T21:48:25+02:00

Depending on what gooddies Sheeo is able to unlock within the game engine, it's possible that this could be used to manage the number of attackers as well.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 03 Jan 2015, 21:48

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T21:51:29+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
I believe this limits the amount of PROJECTILES fired at an entity, not amount of units firing at an entity, in which case damage done by each projectile IS important.

Depends on the projectile at what it's fired at now don't it. Anyhow, it's easy to declare who us firing at whom and save this in a table held by the target. Should too many attackers come at a single target, it's possible to have them "reset" their current target and search for a new one instead. (Yes I've done it)

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 03 Jan 2015, 21:46

Re: DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T21:43:15+02:00

I believe this limits the amount of PROJECTILES fired at an entity, not amount of units firing at an entity, in which case damage done by each projectile IS important.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 03 Jan 2015, 21:43

Re: Upcoming patch 3639

2015-01-03T21:45:41+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
Well that wouldn't be so simple as you have to factor in how much damage a shot actually deals when shooting units... When shooting at nukes, you know that 1 shot will kill it so you can just set it to 1, but for units it wouldn't work because one shot could either deal 2 damage or 1600 damage. It also doesn't work all that well when there are a lot of targets and a lot of shooters, which is probably why it was only implemented for nukes, since you won't be shooting down that many at once (and they're slow, making targeting and counting how many shots have been fired at a target easier).

Not to mention you don't want to waste more than 1 anti nuke on 1 nuke since they actually cost resources to build as opposed to other projectiles.

Sheeo is right but before I depart I'll say that knowing the damage done isn't important, especially if we are just limiting the number of attackers per unit as per the DesiredShootersCap. This in and of itself is a limited for of overkill control and one that could already work within the existing game code.

Beside, complete OKC would never be accepted into FAF as it would be like having a self managing economy.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 03 Jan 2015, 21:40

Re: Upcoming patch 3639

2015-01-03T21:11:34+02:00

Resin_Smoker wrote:
Sheeo, are you familiar with the blueprint label "DesiredShooterCap"?

Select any unit in the game and press shift-F6 to see a blueprint pop up menu. Scroll down it till you find the label. For every unit in the game it's always set to ZERO, which makes me think this was a possible AI / weapon controller label that never got used. Have you seen anything in game that currently uses this?

Resin

I didn't know about this, so RK has enlightened me as well

Regardless; I think we should have this spun off into its own thread.

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 03 Jan 2015, 21:11

Re: Upcoming patch 3639

2015-01-03T21:07:25+02:00

Well that wouldn't be so simple as you have to factor in how much damage a shot actually deals when shooting units... When shooting at nukes, you know that 1 shot will kill it so you can just set it to 1, but for units it wouldn't work because one shot could either deal 2 damage or 1600 damage. It also doesn't work all that well when there are a lot of targets and a lot of shooters, which is probably why it was only implemented for nukes, since you won't be shooting down that many at once (and they're slow, making targeting and counting how many shots have been fired at a target easier).

Not to mention you don't want to waste more than 1 anti nuke on 1 nuke since they actually cost resources to build as opposed to other projectiles.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 03 Jan 2015, 21:07

DesiredShooterCap

2015-01-03T21:03:37+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
This is used by projectiles AFAIK, namely nukes. This is why only one anti nuke is shot at each nuke, rather than multiple. Not sure if TML's use it because TMD does overkill TML's, but nukes definitely use it, and is the reason why you can't fool anti-nukes the same way you can fool TMD.

Would be awesome if this could be applied to units in the game as a form of overkill control.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 03 Jan 2015, 21:03