Forged Alliance Forever

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-20T21:23:29+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
hmmmm
- acu would be as 0 tier units? for get full vet from everything ?

ACU: It would be nice if the Vet here behaves as how high the ACU ist upgraded in Tech. A T2 upgrade makes it a T2 unit and so on.
This way staying T1 and shooting around with i.e. the range extension makes a faster upgrade possible.
it is also much more dangerous (therefore the higher experience the commander gets )

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
- lower unit tier more unseen veteranci is so make no real problem

i do not understand

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
- fix problem where experimental feed so fast on low tech. but exp will still make vet lvl 1/2 from T1/T2 army spam, i hate when exp behavior on this manner. max 2vet level is much better as 5. but it still exist, and deserve remove instant heal.

Many people like the insta heal. it is feared and loved, I suppose. And you (if you steer the experimental) wait for the next level to kick in.
maybe it is possible to let the unit glow when the levelup is close. this glowing could look like the ACU is behavin in the beginning of the game.
lets say the unit is close to a level up after every kill it glows/skin_is_changing for 5 seconds.
this way the opponent can withdram or selfdestruct the army and send in some bombers or whatever or amass the attack.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
- would be need mesh with vet level numbers. it would also need too after changing vet point from unit tier to mass cost.

yes it hopefully would not making it impossible due to heavy calculations

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
- probably same effect as your suggestion have change point from unit tier to mass cost. T1 units get very litle point to T3 units, and would not worth to kill them for taking vet point. T1 tank is 1,1vet point and T3 brick is 24,8 vet point.

This is true, but this way any unit would then make all the time vet points for killing the small units.
with the idea to limit this after a vet upgrade, it would behave like in any other game where your character is not leveling any more when killing very low level enemies.
how could you gain experience when killing an ant for the X-time?
you would have to pick in an army the "big bosses". let the rest be done by your own T1-T3 army.

this also would bring up kindof the need of a switch where you can tell your units wht to attack first: T1, T2, T3, EXP or ACU&SACUs.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
- although your suggestion can make it probably better.
i consider how to integrate it to my first page list, any idea? or simply put it as 6 point?

I do not understand your list in the threadstarter post that good.
those points are not excluding themself from another that much.
if you take this proposal somehow into account it would be great.
i was myself thingking about how to explain it so simple that anyone could understand the rule.
well, lets say a one-liner readable to everybody understanding one line of code.

but i can not bring it to a program language. sorry. it is even hard to bring it to words :-/

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 20 Jan 2015, 21:23

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-20T01:15:12+02:00

hmmmm

i would consider about it. It make some sense
(sory i skip your post before now)

EDIT after while:
it is good thought. Pretty elegant.
- acu would be as 0 tier units? for get full vet from everything ?
- lower unit tier more unseen veteranci is so make no real problem
- fix problem where experimental feed so fast on low tech. but exp will still make vet lvl 1/2 from T1/T2 army spam, i hate when exp behavior on this manner. max 2vet level is much better as 5. but it still exist, and deserve remove instant heal.
- would be need mesh with vet level numbers. it would also need too after changing vet point from unit tier to mass cost.
- probably same effect as your suggestion have change point from unit tier to mass cost. T1 units get very litle point to T3 units, and would not worth to kill them for taking vet point. T1 tank is 1,1vet point and T3 brick is 24,8 vet point.

- although your suggestion can make it probably better.
i consider how to integrate it to my first page list, any idea? or simply put it as 6 point?

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 20 Jan 2015, 00:43

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-19T23:06:41+02:00

Hmmm, is this topic done? I thought my idea is a good one.
Is noone interested in this anymore?

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 19 Jan 2015, 23:06

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-15T13:30:22+02:00

I have another way of handling veterancy.
Only if the Veterancy Level is 0 all Units give Experience Points.
If a Vet Level is 1, no Tier 1 Units gives Experience any more except if it is a T1 Unit
If a Vet Level is 2, no Tier 2 Units gives Experience any more and so on (except if it is itself a T1 or T2 Unit).

So that if a Vet3 Tier1 unit kills a Tech2 or T3 or Exp(4), it still makes Veterancy.

This means a Vet1 Experimental can only make points killing T2 units and above.
A Vet4 Experimental Unit can only gain Points killing Experimentals.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 15 Jan 2015, 13:30

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-13T03:04:56+02:00

Slightly off topic but it wasn't double rate of fire in vanilla, it was like 10 times rate of fire. It was a solid line of green shots. But yes it was balanced differently.

Statistics: Posted by Deering — 13 Jan 2015, 03:04

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-12T21:59:36+02:00

yesterday i was play 1 skirmish game on vanila supcom. And take a attention how well and how are unit balanced. And must say taht they was balanced TERIBLE totaly terrible, like autors totaly dont care about balance, for example upgrade on aeon acu - double rate of fire cost 5000 mass double range cost 800 mass and shield cost 700 mass. yeah realy, or lab kill harbringer, because harb was not accurate enought to kill 1 lab.

so we dont must think and care what some mechanism was intended to work, and take care only what is better for game. Supcom developers are not Goods, thay make tons of mistake, and faf is already 3x better game as was fa

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 12 Jan 2015, 21:59

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-12T17:07:22+02:00

KrogothFTW wrote:
sisso wrote:Veterancy is a way to "cheat" to force high tier have a big advantage over low tiers. It is like a exponential factor against lower tier. (In my understand )and defender.

I thought it was intended to be an incentive to keep your troops alive.

I don't know the original objective of this, but RTS are not famous about take care of your units, especially SC. But it works very well to as parameter to have sure that nobody find a good cost effective t1/t2 vs t4 without fine tune hp/damage of all units.

SC have no unit upgrade system (ok, almost ), a mantis is a mantis, not a mantis with magic double armor. You know how to kill it. I think the problem of Veterancy is that it changes their units.

Statistics: Posted by sisso — 12 Jan 2015, 17:07

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-10T00:31:06+02:00

sisso wrote:
Veterancy is a way to "cheat" to force high tier have a big advantage over low tiers. It is like a exponential factor against lower tier. (In my understand )and defender.

I thought it was intended to be an incentive to keep your troops alive.

Statistics: Posted by KrogothFTW — 10 Jan 2015, 00:31

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-09T15:50:53+02:00

Veterancy is a way to "cheat" to force high tier have a big advantage over low tiers. It is like a exponential factor against lower tier. (In my understand )

Use t1 against is like use knife against a tiger tank.

I like it. Current system create some very interesting gameplay that could decide between a waste of mass and a game ender decided by moves of both attacker and defender.

Repair for the same cost would be nice.

I don't see value in penalization on lower tier engineers, it is like build, you need one to start but can build with any one.

Statistics: Posted by sisso — 09 Jan 2015, 15:50

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-09T07:56:24+02:00

Resin_Smoker wrote:
No... COST or what it took to build a unit in the first place. Granted there is the limitation each engineer has in so far as innate build speed and maximum consumption rates. Hold on lets provide an example:

Our fictional T3 unit cost 100 mass, 1000 energy, while requiring 30 seconds to build. When damaged in combat to half its health, it would require 50 mass, 500 energy and 15 seconds to repair. (Not counting the units innate regeneration) this of coarse is assuming that a T3 engineer or equivalent was repairing it.

Now should a T2 engineer repair our damaged fictional unit, it should do so at a 50% penalty to the amount of time required. Hence, 15 seconds (build time) x 1.5 = 22.5 seconds.

And so on with a T1 engineer the penalty increases to 100%, or simply put, 30 seconds

Resin

So, you realize that a T2 engineer already has a build rate 41.7% of a T3 engineer, and you want to compound that with a factor of 66% on t3 repairs, leading to an overall rate of 27.5%,
And a T1 engineer has a rate of 16.7% compared to a T3 engineer, and you want to compound that with a factor of 50%, for a total rate of 8.3% on T3 repairs. Is that right?

(Which leaves out the fact that t2 engineer costs 31% of mass of t3, and T1 engineer costs 11% of mass of t3)

Statistics: Posted by KrogothFTW — 09 Jan 2015, 07:56

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-09T03:55:56+02:00

Thank you snake for support.

this is also not first time when bronksanity have this cenzor moods in past he remove my preciese post on which i was spend 4hours of time, only for reason that he dont see it as important that someone could disuse about...

Hawkei wrote:
The simplest and easiest way to fix HP gain is to multiply it by the fraction of remaining over total HP

Hi Hawkei, Yes i was think about your suggestion when you write it in Ubers post, and contemplate about it before i make this post. It will help on problem when units is supost to die- have only few hp and dont die only for instant big mount of veterancy hp gain. It make situation less bad as it is. But in finnal it make problem only less problematic but dont cure him.

The main problem stay same, and that is fear use your units against bigger tech for dont feed them. Show you example:
ML is going to your base, you have cca similar mount of mass in your T1/T2 army, and you dont have time to build enought PD/T3...

actual situation
- you autodestruct whole your army to dont feed him. load your acu to transport and fly to ally base, and hope someone would solve ML later.
- you say yourself that you have huge army and you have not shit in pants, send your whole army against ML, you have huge army you kill him, or at least take him brutal dmg and you will end him with OC. Ml kill all your army, and on moment when you acu would be grilled ML end with 60 000/63000max HP = 15K more as when you start.

your suggestion
- you autodestruct whole your army to dont feed him. load your acu to transport and fly to ally base, and hope someone would solve ML later.
- you say yourself that you have huge army and you have not shit in pants, send your whole army against ML, you have huge army you kill him, or at least take him brutal dmg and you will end him with OC. Ml kill all your army, and on moment when you acu would be grilled ML end with 20 000/63000max HP = 15K less as when start, but still destroy your mighty army for cost of ML.

My suggestion
- you autodestruct whole your army to dont feed him. load your acu to transport and fly to ally base, and hope someone would solve ML later
- you say yourself that you have huge army and you have not shit in pants, send your whole army against ML, you have huge army you kill him, or at least take him brutal dmg and you will end him with OC. Because you have army on cca cost of ML you take him same dmg as units before but ML dont get any extra hp what can change a fight so you are able to easy finish him with OC.

Also it dont dont remove veterancy, veterancy regeneration would be cca 1,4x better as is now. repair would be 2x more effective. Only units will not f*** up balance for gaining any extre advantage for have huge mount of HP.

Hope that this example amplify same problem with less hp heal and help me to get you on my side

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 09 Jan 2015, 03:55

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-09T01:56:47+02:00

The simplest and easiest way to fix HP gain is to multiply it by the fraction of remaining over total HP. This gives everyone the best of both worlds. It means that you still get the HP boost and it will be directly proportional to the HP remaining. It would shift the focus toward keeping veteran units alive so that they might benefit from their veterancy.

I also object to people hijacking the "silent majority" argument and presuming that they know what the "silent majority" thinks on this matter. If they aren't bothered to participate, why should be bother considering their POV anyway? Based on an estimate of those participating in this thread, there would have to be more people wanting to see change as there are not. Possibly more.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 09 Jan 2015, 01:56

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-08T23:06:30+02:00

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:
I was actually really tempted to either close or merge this topic.... there are already 2-3 old topics on this, and the concensus on every one of them is that there are a few people who think the vet system is broken, and a few people who want it to stay the same. The silent majority could not care less.

I think it should stay the same.

I am bothered by this post, and those like it. I was not aware of the older topics (if and only if they repeat the same information, could we have a link to them, and then you could close the topic?), and this is still a problem. Of course people will have opinions, but how many back them up with facts and numbers and how many are trolling, how many simply refuse to entertain this thought because they don't want to see any changes? In every thread on these forums there are a few good posts and then mass people giving their opinions with no evidence. Unfortunately, it seems that there are people who regard those with well thought out points, and those with one line of opinionated drivel to be of similar merit.

Just because it is not a problem to you because you are not a competitive player does not mean that there is not a problem. Just because I don't give my opinion about this doesn't mean that I couldn't care less. Maybe players don't check the forums daily. Maybe they realize that in every thread it's useless to post because the point is made relatively early, and after that it is redundant. These players made great points and attempted to discuss it reasonably, and you shut them down with essentially "nobody cares," which is far from true. I really do care about this by the way BRNK, but adding my voice to the twenty others who have said the exact same thing does not make the point of this thread any more valid.

But since I am here, and you demand that more voices be heard, in order for this topic to mean anything, I will give you mine.

The addition of hp on vet is insanely bad for gameplay. It helps to facilitate passive gameplay and really just not doing anything.

If you engage any unit and let it vet, there is the possibility of the unit gaining as much or more hp than it had before, with extra regen. This is immediately better for units with more hp. A great example of this is exactly what others have said: experimentals vetting off low tier units to gain more hp than they had to begin with. The ACU vetting is also a great example of stagnating gameplay. You will only see players engaging the acu once they are sure they can kill it, and never fighting it with a few units before because of vet. Any hp taken from it will instantly be recouped upon the vet.

This means you will see players saving up masses of units and not doing anything with them because they do not want to make the acu stronger. ASF vs Czar you see this, T1 and T2 vs ACU, Land Experimentals vs anything.

While sure, it can be fun to go rambo com and laugh maniacally as you OC anything that comes near you and turn it into more HP, it's not really balanced. That being said, I don't want to destroy veterancy, just the massive hp gain you get for already slaughtering your opponents army and getting the reclaim. I think at the very least it will not hurt anyone too terribly if we test some increased regen rates, or something, and removed hp gain.

And more than anything, the Council of Setons is very busy doing a lot of stuff. I don't think they are outright ignoring anything. visionik himself has spent a great deal of time trying to learn all of the community's useless opinions in the past few months and you should be grateful for that. Just takes time I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a couple months to see some big balance changes like this.

Statistics: Posted by SneakySnake — 08 Jan 2015, 23:06

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-08T17:43:18+02:00

Here is one example why vet insta heal is not good on acu same as on another units/XP.

I go full trolling mode, upgrade 2x t2 mex in 5x5 map and build more enginer as tanks. And lose, yeah but not because troll too hard, but because send whole army to kill acu with <1500 hp, stay with my acu in safe when can secure kill. Or when can make bomber for kill him. He got vet when have 130 hp and then alive with +-100hp i send whole my army and then cant def base and die to spam.. whiteout vet shit system what cant be correct predictible i easy won.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 08 Jan 2015, 17:43

Re: veterancy and repair system discusion

2015-01-01T20:14:47+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
but it already its!

yes its with build power, but its same. T1 enginer build 4time slower as T2 and 8time slow as T3. It will be then too slow, and lower tech would be ussles for repair and it will make no extra sence, make repair with lower tech near ussles. It only complicate game with any extra gain, and with some loses.

No it's not!

I can build several units for what it would cost to repair the same unit in the field.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 01 Jan 2015, 20:14