Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-04T23:46:38+02:00

When the council of setons is up and running, one of the biggest things I'm going to bring up for them to talk over is the T2 Torpedo bombers, which are all four broken mechanically causing some pretty hilarious imbalance among them. They need to decide what we want those units to be in the first place, because right now the Seraphim one is utterly, utterly useless.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 04 Nov 2014, 23:46

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-04T19:06:57+02:00

If anything needs to be altered with sera, its the t2 torp bombers for sure. I would say I rather have 100 cybran torp bombers than 200 sera.

Statistics: Posted by galacticfear — 04 Nov 2014, 19:06

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-04T17:42:20+02:00

Aulex wrote:
ZLO_RD wrote:
Lame wrote:only torp bomber that gets effected by torpedo defense when attacking surface ships

i think that is wrong, torp bombers are not affected by torp def as far as i know...
but i would agree that sera torp bombers do not work in shallow water

I think sera does, aeon doesn't because depth charge, cyb doesn't because it never reaches the water, rather tracks the boat above water. Uef I thought it behaved like cyb but recently I've seen people discuss how it doesn't track, so if you move away from it, the torps will reach the water(haven't tested this though)

I was wrong about uef torp bombers, they track too

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 04 Nov 2014, 17:42

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-04T16:59:53+02:00

As for the OP Cybran frigate, they need it to decently counter any hover because they have none.

As for the Cybran sub vs. Sera problem, I think we should buff the sera t2 bomber an maybe even make 2nd most powerful torp bomber, but I don't know how this will stack up with other Sera vs. Aeon (also another point is how weak the UEF t2 navy is, but that doesn't matter since they have OP t3 navy).

For the "creativeness" of Sera, you can be pretty creative, you have nano ACU, asswasher, t2 bots, epic TML + MML + ACU backpack TML, and high-capacity transports (epic drops ). I don't really see how sera are boring.

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 04 Nov 2014, 16:59

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-03T18:54:56+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
Lame's post is especially true when talking about Cybran and their retarded-OP (Relative to the others) Frigates!!!!

OP oh really? and what about Aeon and Seraphim OP hover????

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 03 Nov 2014, 18:54

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-02T23:28:10+02:00

Lame's post is especially true when talking about Cybran and their retarded-OP (Relative to the others) Frigates!!!!

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 02 Nov 2014, 23:28

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-02T23:24:55+02:00

keyser wrote:
you guys only see a part of the naval game play. Should i remember you that cybran doesn't have hover, and sera does ?
yes obviously tech 2 subs is a great counter to destro/cruiser/frigate.
but they are useless vs hover.
you going to say : spam T2 subs and frigate => autowin, since baracuda are king of naval unit (at T2 stage) and (super OP cybran) frigate is epic counter to hover.
but it's false. 1 hover vs 1 frigate => hover get shot down. epic win for frigate. but when you going to have more unit, the balance is different. hover stack up (they are closer to each other) and become super hard to counter.

=> usual tactic vs hover is attack move for frigate (to stack up at max range). But in case of 1/3 arty - 2/3 T2 hover, you can't do attack move (since arty does insane : high dps + good aoe = awsome vs unit stack). air doesn't counter it because of hover flak.

so cybran can spam barracuda to win submerge navy, but sera can spam hover and kill boat and go on land and go insane.

completely inaccurate - hover NEVER counters the same mass in frigates no matter how big the numbers are.
on top of that frigates have a major speed advantage over hover and even more over zthuee.

i'd really like to see a replay of good players where hover counters frigates mass efficiently (maps can be white fire,balvery v4,water of isis,rush me more,setons)

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 02 Nov 2014, 23:24

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-11-02T22:55:21+02:00

you guys only see a part of the naval game play. Should i remember you that cybran doesn't have hover, and sera does ?
yes obviously tech 2 subs is a great counter to destro/cruiser/frigate.
but they are useless vs hover.
you going to say : spam T2 subs and frigate => autowin, since baracuda are king of naval unit (at T2 stage) and (super OP cybran) frigate is epic counter to hover.
but it's false. 1 hover vs 1 frigate => hover get shot down. epic win for frigate. but when you going to have more unit, the balance is different. hover stack up (they are closer to each other) and become super hard to counter.

=> usual tactic vs hover is attack move for frigate (to stack up at max range). But in case of 1/3 arty - 2/3 T2 hover, you can't do attack move (since arty does insane : high dps + good aoe = awsome vs unit stack). air doesn't counter it because of hover flak.

so cybran can spam barracuda to win submerge navy, but sera can spam hover and kill boat and go on land and go insane.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 02 Nov 2014, 22:55

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-29T05:32:38+02:00

I have brought up the broken torpedo balance with Seraphim before but no one will believe me. I think people "test" mass for mass units by just adding up a unit count and slamming the groups into each other. Even if both groups of units can see each other, and both groups are microing, because of the firing pattern of the subs they take out the destroyers more easily, and when one destroyer dies it has a greater impact on total remaining DPS of the group than a single sub dying. A small amount of competent micro and Cybran subs, stealth or no, straight up rape Seraphim navy. If you have air control, you can literally build nothing but sub hunters and roll a seraphim player out of the water. Clean up the engies with frigates and BAM, instant navy win.

Add to this that the Seraphim torp bombers are freaking awful, and you have yourself a bad situation to say the least.

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 29 Oct 2014, 05:32

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-28T18:57:04+02:00

Sera weird playstyles are possible, but those often require to use ACU with nano or TML upgrade, which is always quite risky moves.

Statistics: Posted by Lu_Xun_17 — 28 Oct 2014, 18:57

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-28T16:54:23+02:00

here you can see sera destroyer cannot see subs as a result it dies when both players micro.
after that some tests with 10 vs 20 and subs not using their stealth - result 50% mass left when subs micro a little (just focusing fire)
35% mass left when both straight up run into each other

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 28 Oct 2014, 16:54

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-28T16:28:09+02:00

Lame wrote:
please use your brain before posting shit

1 destroyer against 2 microd stealth subs loses with both subs having 90+% health why ? destroyer cant even see subs.
subs are more microable in general because they inflict their damage in a volley of shots. its also possible to make major micro mistakes such as running 3 subs directly through 2 destroyers without losing any subs.
as numbers rise cybran t2 subs against sera destroyer turns into literally THE most imbalanced fight there is with faf balance.

Post a replay. The results in Unit Test mode are consistent with my statements. Anyone can see this.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 28 Oct 2014, 16:28

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-28T13:36:56+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
Lame wrote:with cybran t2 subs - seraphim destroyers lose to them mass for mass the subs are faster, get stronger with numbers and are not scoutable

Not true. Please always use the built-in Unit Test mode before posting misinformation.

For equal cost, the Seraphim Destroyer will kill any combination of T1-T2 subs with at least 1,000 HP remaining.

please use your brain before posting shit

1 destroyer against 2 microd stealth subs loses with both subs having 90+% health why ? destroyer cant even see subs.
subs are more microable in general because they inflict their damage in a volley of shots. its also possible to make major micro mistakes such as running 3 subs directly through 2 destroyers without losing any subs.
as numbers rise cybran t2 subs against sera destroyer turns into literally THE most imbalanced fight there is with faf balance.

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 28 Oct 2014, 13:36

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-28T12:58:38+02:00

The barracudas anti-torpedo "flares" stack up quite badly since they only fire once every 20 seconds

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 28 Oct 2014, 12:58

Re: Seraphim Variations

2014-10-28T12:42:35+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
Lame wrote:with cybran t2 subs - seraphim destroyers lose to them mass for mass the subs are faster, get stronger with numbers and are not scoutable

Not true. Please always use the built-in Unit Test mode before posting misinformation.

For equal cost, the Seraphim Destroyer will kill any combination of T1-T2 subs with at least 1,000 HP remaining.

Which doesn't involve stealth I think? And what if you put 3 seraphim destroyers vs equal cost in cybran t2 subs? Torp defence stacks up.

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 28 Oct 2014, 12:42