Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-11T15:28:18+02:00

Well I thinked some days about this Idea.

TL;DR Make 1v1 Custom games Unranked at all. Keep Ladder and XvX Custom game Rating (if there is more than 1 Player per Team)

Why do we have to have a custom 1v1 Rating? There is the Ladder for this!

So just keep is this way maybe:

1v1 Ladder Rating is shown in Ladder 1v1 AND 1v1 Custom Games
XvX Teamgame Rating is shown on XvX Custom games

Now: 1v1 Custom games are UNRANKED at all (Teamrank, nor Ladder)
Laddergames are RANKED (as before)
XvX games are RANKED (as before)

As you can see if you just make 1v1 Custom games unranked - we don't have to change the whole Ratingsystem. IMO It's not good, but the best we can offer to display Skills.

Statistics: Posted by Frozen_byte — 11 Oct 2014, 15:28

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T21:14:01+02:00

The ladder position is something no one cares about.
Unless you're talking about the 1v1 leaderboard, which is just the 1v1 ratings..

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 10 Oct 2014, 21:14

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T21:11:11+02:00

Vee wrote:
(BTW as originally intended, ladder rating *is* an epeen contest (unlike custom rating). So it's a bit backwards that in chat custom rating is displayed and not ladder rating...)

1v1 rating should not be an epeen contest, it's simply a game balance metric created by an algorithm. Ladder position (As in, 42nd place etc) should be where the epeen belongs. Overall though you make a good point about the rating gain/loss popup, that was BAD.

Ideal New System (As I see it):

Display 1v1 and Custom ratings
Ratings remain rounded to the nearest 100
No popup on game win/loss related to rating
Give a popup on Ladder win/loss IF your Ladder rank just changed (Idea is to focus people's epeen rants here, not on the rating)
Easy access to two leaderboards. The 1v1 displays 'Ladder Position' as well as rating, the custom leaderboard displays only rating
Leaderboards show exact, non-rounded rating
No rating-related (Doesn't count ladder position loss) raging on Aeolus, on pain of being impaled up the butt by Gorton...

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 10 Oct 2014, 21:11

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T19:34:19+02:00

Then why have a leaderboard where ratings are rounded - that makes absolutely no sense.

Also, assume for the moment that balance is therefore based on 1 v 1 ratings, because they are somehow more 'accurate' than custom, for whatever reason. People here have already posted that people globally ranked high but with little 1v1 experience can play less well, so it would not be surprising if custom games are balanced around those ratings. If 1v1 ratings are perfectly balanced per spot, then it encourages the mindset of playing 1v1s within a team game. If the spot you're playing and who you're playing directly against is based on 1v1 ratings then it make sense to treat the match you're about to play as some sort of coordinated 1v1s. Also, why should 1v1 ratings matter for team games, if it's all about cooperation?

For people with 0 ratings in global, host your own game, or play a couple. It doesn't take long to get the ratings up. Really, 10 games or so and it'd be fine, like it is shaky for 1v1s starting anyway.

The only real solution is to have team matchmaker, and something like this isn't really that helpful/informative

EDIT: a bit rushed but the main points are there. Sorry if it's a bit ocnfuisng in parts

Statistics: Posted by Coffee nut — 10 Oct 2014, 19:34

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T19:10:28+02:00

"Someone with no custom at all but 1k 1v1 can't join non-noob games - this would fix that." (by showing ladder rating and global rating in custom games)

I don't think people will agree to play a 10% balanced game (which means winning 2 points or losing 30pts), the only side who agree to that would be the side who has the 0 rating in their team(he's way better than his rating, so even if we loose we loose 2 points but if we win(really possible since he's not a beginner) we win 30 points, it's 200% worth to play this game).

It's like when someone is from gpg and play this game for the first time in faf, in custom games he is accused of smurf because he destroyed the ennemy team, then he's not pleased because it's wrong,he's not a smurf and says in aeolus "omg I can't join good games, I'm kicked from it" and people in aeolus answer : "if you are better, then just win these noob games, your rating will go up".

Statistics: Posted by odin002 — 10 Oct 2014, 19:10

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T16:31:05+02:00

Why do people on the internet have no subtlety!? Caring about being good is fine. Caring about losing gaining rating, and where that puts you on the leaderboard, fine. Bitching about it constantly in Aeolus because some guy DCed and you lost 2 points annoys everyone else and shows your ignorance of how much those two points matter overall

Displaying ladder rating is not related to this, right? I agree that reintroducing a custom leaderboard could in theory bring that bitching back, but I very much doubt it. The reason for the bitching was that FAF displayed a popup after each game saying "You just lost 6 rating points". THAT is what caused the bitching, and RK4000 is not proposing to bring that back. Furthermore, custom rating will stay rounded as far as I can tell from his proposal (or it's a big coincidence that the ratings are exactly 1300/1500 in his example?).

You know what we see people (rightly) complaining about in chat nowadays? They have 0 custom rating and people are kicking them from their games, and people are not joining their games. This creates a chicken and egg problem where in order to get a custom rating you first need to have a custom rating. Displaying ladder rating solves this: people with 0 rating can search ladder to get a ladder rating. Especially if we standardize the ladder & custom ratings to the same average value, then a guy with 1000 ladder rating most likely wouldn't be kicked from games anymore because it proves that he isn't a total newbie who will most likely make his team lose.

(BTW as originally intended, ladder rating *is* an epeen contest (unlike custom rating). So it's a bit backwards that in chat custom rating is displayed and not ladder rating...)

I think it's an endemic problem as it is that 4 v 4s are often considered as 4 1v1s, and I think allowing people to balance teamgames based on their 1 v 1 ratings will further strengthen this.

Apart from the fact that in both phrases the term "1v1" is mentioned, I don't see any logical connection at all. Can you explain how displaying 1v1 rating will make people play team games as 4x 1v1?

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 10 Oct 2014, 16:31

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T15:14:14+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
I would even suggest to make the rating system this way: Custom rating=(Global rating+ladder rating)/2

This is a good idea, but unnecessary if you show both ratings, as people will instinctively do the calculation themselves in their head when looking at the two ratings side by side.

Vee wrote:
Why so serious? This is a game ffs. Many people are motivated by competitiveness. If you aren't, good for you, but why insist that everybody should be the same as you, and even go so far as kick/ban if not?

Why do people on the internet have no subtlety!? Caring about being good is fine. Caring about losing gaining rating, and where that puts you on the leaderboard, fine. Bitching about it constantly in Aeolus because some guy DCed and you lost 2 points annoys everyone else and shows your ignorance of how much those two points matter overall!

It's the primary reason PilOt rounded the ratings and wanted to hide them entirely, people bitched about it sooooo much!

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 10 Oct 2014, 15:14

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T14:52:07+02:00

Ionic wrote:
Who cares what your 1v1 rating is in FAF? How does 1v1 rating help balance games?

Is it just for measuring who has the biggest ____?

The displayed rating is only for balancing team games or measuring and I think measurements should be kept to PM's or separate tabs.

PS my ladder rating would be 800, how confusing would it be when I joined a newb game and told them I was really an 800 and there was something screwy with the dual ratings showing up?

(When I say me I mean a lot of people besides myself...)

Thread can be deleted after Vee reads my reply and all effort on this matter can cease.

Someone with no custom at all but 1k 1v1 can't join non-noob games - this would fix that. That's why displaying the 1v1 is a good idea.
And there is a tooltip showing "global rating" already if you mouse over it. There could be another one added to easily describe the two.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 10 Oct 2014, 14:52

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T08:05:35+02:00

Sorry I don't think this is a good idea at all, for two main reasons:

1) It's regressive. Assuming that the custom rating leaderboard is reinstated, you will no longer see individuals with 'global' ranking rounded to the nearest 100 (unless you want a leaderboard with 2 2500 rated, 3 2300 rated, 5 2000 rated and about 200 1000 rated, etc), which makes people see custom ratings as actually mattering. Let's not forget that both leaderboards used to exist, and that global was removed so that people treated it more as a balancing tool. Sure the global leaderboard incorporated 1 v 1 rating in, but that wasn't the main issue. I think overall that change was effective; why change it back? Don't make custom ranking into e-peen measuring contest please, and remember that we progressed from that. Let's not move a step back.

2) It is a problem in custom games to show 1 v 1 ratings as it's more misleading and possibly, for me, it ruins the idea of teamgames. I think it's an endemic problem as it is that 4 v 4s are often considered as 4 1v1s, and I think allowing people to balance teamgames based on their 1 v 1 ratings will further strengthen this. Secondly, only in extreme cases could this really matter. Another scenario which is more likely to occur is that one team are on mumble, or are on skype whilst the other team aren't, and ratings in those games aren't that relevant. Bear in mind this further reinforces that custom rankings should not matter.

I think it's a badly conceived idea, but judging by this thread I'm against the tide, so good luck implementing it.

EDIT: also, when you all say people complain about rating in chat - don't forget people complained even more about it when there was a global leaderboard.

Statistics: Posted by Coffee nut — 10 Oct 2014, 08:05

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T04:57:01+02:00

I think Aeon players shouldn't get their rating displayed because they get an unfair advantage on water maps.

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 10 Oct 2014, 04:57

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T01:52:34+02:00

I mean right now there is no point in having 1v1 displayed, but once matchmaker is implemented it would be favorable to display both or just a mean global rating. It will allow for people to balance custom games based on whether they want a 1v1 or team game.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 10 Oct 2014, 01:52

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T01:44:03+02:00

Like Vee says, let's keep hostilities and personal attacks out of this if we can.

The way I see this, this thread is about rating clarity in general. None of you can act like you don't see the bickering in aeolus about rating. I don't see an issue with displaying 1v1 rating (especially since global is already displayed) and the possible addition of a custom games leaderboard sounds like a great idea to me (although perhaps this could cause people to become too competitive). Ideally this added information can be used to help balance games.

I'm not sure if more information is ever a bad thing, but that's just my personal opinion.

Statistics: Posted by SneakySnake — 10 Oct 2014, 01:44

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T01:26:01+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
I would even suggest to make the rating system this way: Custom rating=(Global rating+ladder rating)/2

I actually suggested that (Global rating = (Custom + Ladder) /2) but people complained that that makes it 3 ratings, and that people would be confused. Personally I don't think so, but i guess it's simpler this way.

EDIT: Please let's not turn this into a flaming fest. It's only a suggestion I made because some of my friends I'm trying to get into FAF are confused by the rating... I just added a few of my ideas. Let's not turn this into a flaming thread, we all know no progress comes from those

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 10 Oct 2014, 01:26

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T01:16:12+02:00

How about if you need to have a measurement add your 1v1 rating in your game name.

Statistics: Posted by Ionic — 10 Oct 2014, 01:16

Re: Rating system reformat

2014-10-10T01:10:31+02:00

[kick/ban threats here] ...not as your personal epeen meter

Why so serious? This is a game ffs. Many people are motivated by competitiveness. If you aren't, good for you, but why insist that everybody should be the same as you, and even go so far as kick/ban if not?

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 10 Oct 2014, 01:10