Forged Alliance Forever

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T22:15:41+02:00

Mycen wrote:
You mean TMD?

yup, sorry.

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 25 Nov 2014, 22:15

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T21:48:57+02:00

NewForumAccount wrote:
TML ACUs can be airlifted and fire past the "line" of TMDs which usually protect both front and back mexes. Together with the high HP of the ACU only TMDs in the direct vicinity of mass extractors are left as a counter. The seraphim rambo-tacpack will be nerfed to UEF values in the next patch, so at least that shouldn't cause any more problems.

If it is possible to to give the TML upgrade "drawbacks" such as preventing the ACU from being airlifted or from being able to be assisted (while building the missile), that would be an alternative to nerfing it by simply increasing the missle or upgrade cost.

That's not what I meant. I was referring to how the actual missile itself is better than its static counterparts, not the extra uses that come from it being mounted on the ACU. Airlifting your ACU anywhere is a big risk, and it is appropriate that you gain an advantage from it. The TMD "line" is irrelevant when the question is why a single TMD among your mexes can defend against a normal TML but not an ACU tml. There is no reason that the ACU TML needs to have a higher arc, more hp, etc.

IceDreamer wrote:
Increased build-time (To push later in the game and push up the engineering dedication required for rapid-fire, which should remain an option) plus a slightly lower arc (Seraphim and UEF TMD both now work as best they can to hit, Aeon's also now affects it) plus a nerf to the close-range 6000 damage overcharge-like snipe ability of the Seraphim's and I think we end up with a very fair but still mobile and powerful missile system. The upgrade is not expensive after all.

This sounds like a good solution overall. Small changes. You're talking about an increase in missile build time, right? How much of an increase?

Zoram wrote:
I don't really understand the whole debate.

It seems to me that TML is really cheap and fast to build, even if you need them 2v1. The fact that people forget to is another thing.

You mean TMD?

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 25 Nov 2014, 21:48

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T20:50:06+02:00

I don't really understand the whole debate.

It seems to me that TML is really cheap and fast to build, even if you need them 2v1. The fact that people forget to is another thing.

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 25 Nov 2014, 20:50

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T11:46:52+02:00

well i don't really agree.

you take in count that tml can hit the whole opponent team.
so the static does.
and it work for a lot of strategy, first bomber => you can bomb whole opponent team, force them into making aa.
T3 static arty, you force the whole opponent team to make tons of shield.
nuke, you force the whole opponent team to make smd.
telemazer, you force the whole opponent team to make pd.

yes you can assist the tml com, so you can do for a usual tml.
the timing of the tml acu is later than the static tml. you should have tmd by the time already.

the only thing i notice is that when i rush a static tml, i often end up by completelly ruining my eco. (even if my tml did lots of damage). That doesn't happen for the tml acu because it comes later (more T2 mexx to support it), and i can use T2 pgen for other transition. i only go tml acu when i see people forgot of making tmd, because it's more versatil in the end.
So maybe increase the cost missile can be a good idea, so that you need to impact your eco more.

btw you can air lift a T2 engie/com + more BP, and get a tml (and assist it) too. the argument of tml that can be air lift isn't a real good one, it's only the fact that you build the tml before the air lift (you need to build it after for static tml) so it let your opponent not a lot of time to defend his base from an other angle. tml acu is strong because you can do it while being in water.

for the comparaison cruiser/tml, you need to take in count that cruiser is a aa unit, don't forget that part of the unit.
and you don't need T2 pgen to get tmd.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 25 Nov 2014, 11:46

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T11:13:58+02:00

I totally agree with what Aulex wrote, with the addition that in a teamgame, you can offset the power requirement as your team will overflow power to you most of the time, and you can ask for more. They can even speed up the upgrade with assist with engies.

I do not believe ACU TML is too strong outside of teamgames.
If anything is to be done, care must be taken to avoid making it too weak in 1v1 for the sake of teamgames.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 25 Nov 2014, 11:13

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T10:16:43+02:00

Increased build-time (To push later in the game and push up the engineering dedication required for rapid-fire, which should remain an option) plus a slightly lower arc (Seraphim and UEF TMD both now work as best they can to hit, Aeon's also now affects it) plus a nerf to the close-range 6000 damage overcharge-like snipe ability of the Seraphim's and I think we end up with a very fair but still mobile and powerful missile system. The upgrade is not expensive after all.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 25 Nov 2014, 10:16

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-25T00:01:15+02:00

I mean you'll be investing more into cruisers than your opponent will be investing into tmd by the time the base starts to fall apart, but yes in the end cruiser do win and do end up killing their base or something valuable in the end. With that fact though, let's do some calculations:

Premise:

Attacker:

Defending Team:

Looking at all these stats, we can first see that 7 clusters in reality is not a lot of clusters in a team game on a map that is 10x10+. On the other hand we can see that it takes much more power for the attacker than the defender to get the tml, but we also see that it takes much longer for the tmd to be built, and this is ignoring the travel time for engies. This means that the acu tml is extremely susceptible early on where the tmds are still being built. We also have to realize that this acu tml will usually impact the entire team for most maps, making it an extremely good team weapon. Now, in the eyes of many the acu tml is seen as op, but the question is with these given stats, by how much do you want to nerf it. My suggestion was originally an increased missile cost, but by looking at these stats, possibly an increased build time could be a better solution.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 25 Nov 2014, 00:01

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T22:36:45+02:00

Cruisers overwhelm tmd much easier, and no matter how much you make they will always win in the end.

Statistics: Posted by galacticfear — 24 Nov 2014, 22:36

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T22:27:57+02:00

NewForumAccount wrote:
Why are the ACU TMLs more deadly than static in the first place?

TML ACUs can be airlifted and fire past the "line" of TMDs which usually protect both front and back mexes.

I think we need to look at uef/sera cruisers, they are inbetween the deadliness of a tml acu and a regular tml. The thing with cruisers is that they are much more expensive than the tmd to block them in a specific location and are extremely susceptible to hover if separated from the main navy. The counter point with cruisers though is that they are extremely mobile have a large range meaning they can shoot outside the range of the tmd. This is similar mobility characteristic is seen with the acu, but the acu has much more hp, more maneuverable and the missiles are more deadly. I think this extremely tanky and high dps cruiser (acu) as a result of all these characteristics should have an increased missile cost.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 24 Nov 2014, 22:27

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T21:47:21+02:00

Why are the ACU TMLs more deadly than static in the first place?

TML ACUs can be airlifted and fire past the "line" of TMDs which usually protect both front and back mexes. Together with the high HP of the ACU only TMDs in the direct vicinity of mass extractors are left as a counter. The seraphim rambo-tacpack will be nerfed to UEF values in the next patch, so at least that shouldn't cause any more problems.

If it is possible to to give the TML upgrade "drawbacks" such as preventing the ACU from being airlifted or from being able to be assisted (while building the missile), that would be an alternative to nerfing it by simply increasing the missle or upgrade cost.

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 24 Nov 2014, 21:47

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T20:24:00+02:00

NewForumAccount wrote:
By moving the TML upgrade to the T2 arm

It's already bad enough that the Cybran Mazer upgrade is an arm upgrade that builds in the chest, let's not continue this trend. Where would the missiles even launch from? Would they shoot out of its arm? Its non-existent backpack? Ugh, please no. Besides, like Aulex said, this could easily make things worse, and it wouldn't really eliminate the rapid-fire TMLs - most people I see trying to do that already have several engineers assisting to achieve high speed fire, they would just need a few more.

Aulex wrote:
how deadly they are.

This, I think, is still the real issue this thread is supposed to be addressing. Why are the ACU TMLs more deadly than static in the first place? If we're trying to balance them, we should start by making them identical to static TMLs. That right there would eliminate a lot of the balance issues and make any further adjustments to TMD balance much more straightforward.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 24 Nov 2014, 20:24

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T19:35:08+02:00

NewForumAccount wrote:
By moving the TML upgrade to the T2 arm you would prevent both the rapid-fire TML and the rambo TML, while still maintaining the ability to have a mobile TML. This makes especially sense if you take into account that T2 gives you access to TMLs anyway.

That's a huge change, I'm not against it but lots of testing has I be done with this. When the tml is moved to the arm, this will allow the acu to get nano/shield + tml + gun, this seems more deadly than gun, t2, tml even with the increased missile reload time. Another possibility is to drastically increase the cost of each missile to reflect more on how deadly they are.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 24 Nov 2014, 19:35

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T14:55:46+02:00

By moving the TML upgrade to the T2 arm you would prevent both the rapid-fire TML and the rambo TML, while still maintaining the ability to have a mobile TML. This makes especially sense if you take into account that T2 gives you access to TMLs anyway.

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 24 Nov 2014, 14:55

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T11:05:35+02:00

Faction diversity is an endangered species which we must cherish, protect, and reintroduce, not slash and burn for the sake of simplicity.

The TML system does indeed need an overhaul, but will be performed in context of the entire subsystem in order to remain balanced. This will come later, as there are several prerequisites for it that will need to be addressed first.

At a high level, there are actually three separate underlying issues:

- ACU TML is either too strong or too weak, leading to frustrating situations for players on both sides.
- The TML/TMD system is unintuitive, as TMD costs do not reflect their strengths and weaknesses.
- Faction TML differences do not meet with the expectation of their faction's playstyle.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 24 Nov 2014, 11:05

Re: ACU TML & TMDs balance

2014-11-24T04:06:09+02:00

Aurion wrote:
Offence already has the advantage that it can choose to strike on a different spot

what do you mean by that ?

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 24 Nov 2014, 04:06