Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T18:13:48+02:00

Fernest wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:and ASF sweep won't sink the shield as ASFs can no longer target Drones at all, to prevent exactly that scenario from happening.

This is awesome! I lost all of my buildpower to one fly-over ages ago and always kept them away from possible ASFs.
Maybe my old idea of using sacu shoulder drones and a kennel swarm to get a flying cloud of build-power might work after all.

Not when T2 fighters, T1 inties, mobile AA or anything of the sort flies in.

Fernest wrote:
So next time I first give my mass to team mate before assisting shield

Which mass? I never have mass.

If you're at a mass deficit with nothing in storage, your planes won't repair at pads, your SMD's take forever to load.

Meaning: I almost always have mass in storage.

Fernest wrote:
It's not about it being OP, it's about the fact that we have made numerous changes to nerf shields to stop stalemates

Fair enough. So is the no-mass-but-same-assist-rate a bug or intended?

It probably means that from next patch on... assisting w/o mass won't work.

Fernest wrote:
More that of two T3 arties.

It seems I was never in such a stale mate.

Two T3 arties + 2 nuke launchers work pretty well; let the arties kill the SMD's, then nuke the base. Even if that won't go through, it means your opponent spends a crazy amount on shields and SMDs, giving you time to build 3rd T3 arty and 3rd, 4th nuke launcher. Three regular Aeon T3 arties with each 4 T3 Pgens around them firing synchronized deliver 36K damage at a time.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 09 Jun 2014, 18:13

Re: Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T17:45:02+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
and ASF sweep won't sink the shield as ASFs can no longer target Drones at all, to prevent exactly that scenario from happening.

This is awesome! I lost all of my buildpower to one fly-over ages ago and always kept them away from possible ASFs.
Maybe my old idea of using sacu shoulder drones and a kennel swarm to get a flying cloud of build-power might work after all.

So next time I first give my mass to team mate before assisting shield

Which mass? I never have mass.

It's not about it being OP, it's about the fact that we have made numerous changes to nerf shields to stop stalemates

Fair enough. So is the no-mass-but-same-assist-rate a bug or intended?

More that of two T3 arties.

It seems I was never in such a stale mate.

Statistics: Posted by Fernest — 09 Jun 2014, 17:45

Re: Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T17:07:29+02:00

Fernest wrote:
Yes, they work with mass or without.

So next time I first give my mass to team mate before assisting shield

Fernest wrote:
Tested it with 46 kennel drones on UEF heavy shield vs colossus beam.
Although they get a very very small penalty if there is no mass, because one of the 46 drones pauses for a fraction of a second. (Not enough to decrease shield strength, but to keep its level constant)

That's interesting

Fernest wrote:
Ehm... you realize that that means that practically everything can be shielded against anything and everything besides nukes? 20 hyves

Nah.
Let's look at the kennel example, they should be cheaper (drones can change location -> less kennels needed in base).
And let's say assisting would not cost/deplete mass. It still costs 16000 energy (about 6 T3 generators).
You need 23 upgraded kennels to get the 46 drones needed to negate the damage of the colossus beam.

They can change location, but take forever to do so. Hyves change location instantly (within their range). Mass per buildpower they are still cheaper than nuke launcher mass per buildpower. Their buildrange is awesome compared to anything that walks. Negating the damage of a GC is of course not the scenario I'm thinking about. More that of two T3 arties.

Late-game energy is not so much a problem, unless you're already losing. If you pause air production, the overflow is way more than 16K energy. RAS SCU's bring in 1K each. Upgrading two SCU's that have rapid fab with teleport will cost about the same.

Fernest wrote:
Colossus cost: 27500 mass

23 kennels = 12650 mass
23 kennel upgrades = 11500
1 heavy shield = 3000
6 T3 generators = 19440
Sum of it = 46590 mass.

If having a stationary defense with 0 dps, 0 AA, no mobility, which gets destroyed by an ASF strafe for 1.7 times the mass sounds too overpowered to you...
I don't know what to say. (except that you get 6 heavy shields and 10 heavy point defenses for that price and an omni and tac missile defense and some SAMs and then you still have enough mass to build some gens to power everything).

ASF can't kill drones anymore. Also; that's why hyves are so much better; they don't die due to any AA.

Fernest wrote:
Mass bombers still break an mass assisted shield (so snipes are possible due to small lag before the assist begins. Enough lag to break the shield.)
So does the T4 bomber as well as tac missiles as well as czar death etc. etc.
And no one stops land units from entering the bubble.

I really can't imagine a non-contrived scenario where this could be overpowered even if the mass cost was dropped.

I guess the current shield-hating government here at FAF won't agree.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 09 Jun 2014, 17:07

Re: Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T15:10:49+02:00

It's not about it being OP, it's about the fact that we have made numerous changes to nerf shields to stop stalemates. Also, and ASF sweep won't sink the shield as ASFs can no longer target Drones at all, to prevent exactly that scenario from happening.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 09 Jun 2014, 15:10

Re: Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T13:05:00+02:00

Yes, they work with mass or without.
Tested it with 46 kennel drones on UEF heavy shield vs colossus beam.
Although they get a very very small penalty if there is no mass, because one of the 46 drones pauses for a fraction of a second. (Not enough to decrease shield strength, but to keep its level constant)

Ehm... you realize that that means that practically everything can be shielded against anything and everything besides nukes? 20 hyves

Nah.
Let's look at the kennel example, they should be cheaper (drones can change location -> less kennels needed in base).
And let's say assisting would not cost/deplete mass. It still costs 16000 energy (about 6 T3 generators).
You need 23 upgraded kennels to get the 46 drones needed to negate the damage of the colossus beam.

Colossus cost: 27500 mass

23 kennels = 12650 mass
23 kennel upgrades = 11500
1 heavy shield = 3000
6 T3 generators = 19440
Sum of it = 46590 mass.

If having a stationary defense with 0 dps, 0 AA, no mobility, which gets destroyed by an ASF strafe for 1.7 times the mass sounds too overpowered to you...
I don't know what to say. (except that you get 6 heavy shields and 10 heavy point defenses for that price and an omni and tac missile defense and some SAMs and then you still have enough mass to build some gens to power everything).

Mass bombers still break an mass assisted shield (so snipes are possible due to small lag before the assist begins. Enough lag to break the shield.)
So does the T4 bomber as well as tac missiles as well as czar death etc. etc.
And no one stops land units from entering the bubble.

I really can't imagine a non-contrived scenario where this could be overpowered even if the mass cost was dropped.

Statistics: Posted by Fernest — 09 Jun 2014, 13:05

Re: Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T06:52:53+02:00

Ehm... you realize that that means that practically everything can be shielded against anything and everything besides nukes?

Dump a 20 hyves around a T3 shield and voila.

Now it costs something like 4K mass to "recharge" a Aeon T3 shield; more than it costs new.

Are you sure it works just as fast when you have empty storage and a deficit?

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 09 Jun 2014, 06:52

Supporting shield should only cost energy

2014-06-09T06:28:12+02:00

If you use engis to support a shield it costs a ton of mass, but it still works even if your demand is above your income and the storages are empty.
I guess the mass cost is a bug?

Statistics: Posted by Fernest — 09 Jun 2014, 06:28