Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T22:25:39+02:00

Szakalot wrote:
Plasma_Wolf wrote:Really? Looking one time gives me good enough of an answer. I seriously doubt that I'm faster by a click and drag and then a look, rather than just a look.

I think it would be a matter of preference, looking one time, or looking at numbers.

Fair enough.

1. You scout a group you didn't see on radar. Quick selection, you now the numbers. You lose vision, you still have the numbers.
2. The same thing, but no selection. You lose vision, you know the size somehow.

So, (1) makes it easier to get updated info on the exact opposition.

You could make the selection disappear as soon as the vision disappears, so stealthed units would ping you at sometimes random intervals, making a force harder to judge.

That doesn't change anything about the fact that you are still in situation (1), where you can more precisely know the numbers, in effect removing part of the effectiveness of stealth.

I think economy is hard when you reach more than average skill levels, but for a beginner everything can be hard. I'm sure some think that it should, I disagree with it though, for me the best strategy games evolve in the metagame, not by learning the basic know-how mechanics, and FAF has more opportunities in it than any other RTS!

And still, the proposed system is going to be a very basic know-how mechanic in the first place.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 11 Feb 2014, 22:25

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T21:43:05+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Really? Looking one time gives me good enough of an answer. I seriously doubt that I'm faster by a click and drag and then a look, rather than just a look.

I think it would be a matter of preference, looking one time, or looking at numbers.

1. You scout a group you didn't see on radar. Quick selection, you now the numbers. You lose vision, you still have the numbers.
2. The same thing, but no selection. You lose vision, you know the size somehow.

So, (1) makes it easier to get updated info on the exact opposition.

You could make the selection disappear as soon as the vision disappears, so stealthed units would ping you at sometimes random intervals, making a force harder to judge.

That actually would work nicely with an updatable selection box: you 'paint' an area, and everything in it becomes selected, 'accounted for', in real time. You could assess numbers on both sides on the field, and their positioning, to make more sophisticated tactical/micro strategies.

What do you think it is now? I think it is "relatively hard to learn, hard to master". I also think that this will not make learning the game any easier. The economy is what makes it hard, not the necessity to glance at an army and make an assessment. The ability to get to know every unit will make it too easy though imo.

I think economy is hard when you reach more than average skill levels, but for a beginner everything can be hard. I'm sure some think that it should, I disagree with it though, for me the best strategy games evolve in the metagame, not by learning the basic know-how mechanics, and FAF has more opportunities in it than any other RTS!

Statistics: Posted by Szakalot — 11 Feb 2014, 21:43

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T17:49:50+02:00

Szakalot wrote:
a)Yes, therefore it is easier to use intel to your advantage. Beforehand you had to look and analyse yourself, which takes more 'APM resources'. If you can just click and drag, then having intel will allow players to know whats coming without sacrificing the resources, making intel more APM-cost efficient.

Really? Looking one time gives me good enough of an answer. I seriously doubt that I'm faster by a click and drag and then a look, rather than just a look.

b)Stealth becomes more important because intel is more valuable. Being able to see the units on radar is less advantageous to being able to tell what is on the radar exactly. Active stealth would keep the stealthed units disappearing from enemy vision, thus making it harder to keep an updated info on the exact opposition.

1. You scout a group you didn't see on radar. Quick selection, you now the numbers. You lose vision, you still have the numbers.
2. The same thing, but no selection. You lose vision, you know the size somehow.

So, (1) makes it easier to get updated info on the exact opposition.

c)Dumbs down? Easier to play surely, but I'd wager that the meta-game, i.e. the strategy part would become more sophisticated.

I'm a big fan of 'easy to play, hard to master' and supcom doesn't really fall into this category atm.

What do you think it is now? I think it is "relatively hard to learn, hard to master". I also think that this will not make learning the game any easier. The economy is what makes it hard, not the necessity to glance at an army and make an assessment. The ability to get to know every unit will make it too easy though imo.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 11 Feb 2014, 17:49

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T15:43:10+02:00

a)Yes, therefore it is easier to use intel to your advantage. Beforehand you had to look and analyse yourself, which takes more 'APM resources'. If you can just click and drag, then having intel will allow players to know whats coming without sacrificing the resources, making intel more APM-cost efficient.

b)Stealth becomes more important because intel is more valuable. Being able to see the units on radar is less advantageous to being able to tell what is on the radar exactly. Active stealth would keep the stealthed units disappearing from enemy vision, thus making it harder to keep an updated info on the exact opposition.

c)Dumbs down? Easier to play surely, but I'd wager that the meta-game, i.e. the strategy part would become more sophisticated.

I'm a big fan of 'easy to play, hard to master' and supcom doesn't really fall into this category atm.

Statistics: Posted by Szakalot — 11 Feb 2014, 15:43

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T11:22:38+02:00

Frankly, I never had that problem, not now that I play on a larger resolution, not when I used to play on a smaller resolution.

Even then, my opinion still stands, with the current system, your ability to look is part of the intel system. Use it.

a) knocking out intel becomes more important, as its now much easier to tell what is coming your way

I'd say that it wouldn't make intel more important. You need it to spot the army, you don't need it to tell the exact composition, you needed your eyes for that, and with your proposed changes you need a click and drag manoeuvre with your mouse.

b) stealth acquires a new importance as well

Stealth doesn't change anything. Stealth allows you to hide from radar so your enemy won't spot you. The change of the system occurs when you are spotted, not whether you are detected or not.

c) game shifts towards 'how do i react to X army of this specific composition' rather than 'that looks like a big/small army, attack/defend!'

IE the game dumbs down.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 11 Feb 2014, 11:22

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T09:52:48+02:00

You still have to think about how to counter it!

What this would change in the game:
a) knocking out intel becomes more important, as its now much easier to tell what is coming your way

b) stealth acquires a new importance as well

c) game shifts towards 'how do i react to X army of this specific composition' rather than 'that looks like a big/small army, attack/defend!'

I use the strategic view as much as i can, but if the number of units exceeds 40, my brain will have hard time spotting those 3 t2 AA (mistaking them for t1) and a squad of t2 bots up front, when I know i have to think about 40 other things already.

Maybe its a display issue for my, I play on small resolutions and its possible that its just much harder to make out such details.

Statistics: Posted by Szakalot — 11 Feb 2014, 09:52

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T09:25:42+02:00

Szakalot wrote:
Sure, but I'm talking about massive t1-t2 armies, it takes more time than it should to evaluate the composition

1. Go to strategic view, assess the size of the group and look at the icons to see what they are.That is not the "exact" composition, but it will immediately tell you what you should put up against it.

2. If my enemy can instantly check what I have and how many of it I have, then that means free intel. To use spy planes to see what the enemy army is composed of is natural, but I want players to pay attention to what they see and think about what it is, rather than click-drag-"That's it!" To me, the latter only allows mindlessness.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 11 Feb 2014, 09:25

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-11T08:30:23+02:00

yes, total war is the perfect game for you.
supcom is a rts with a high skill requirement and compared to other high skill rts like starcraft it is
totally not clicking game
totally an eco simulator ^^
totally not a tactics game
a strategy game.
and eco is already a strategy because you might have to decide between better eco and more tanks.

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 11 Feb 2014, 08:30

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-10T23:11:20+02:00

Then why not remove templates from the game if repetitive clicking is the essence of RTS?

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/397782

I would love to create an optimal build order but several major things prevent it.

1. The commander doesn't have full access to the tech 1 tree. So in order to really start I have to first build a factory or tech up my commander. (I should be able to tech up to tech 1 in his upgrade menu.)

2. I can't modify templates once they are established.

3. I can't tell a construction unit "build on nearest possible square." I have to actually micro it. This is mitigated slightly by the snap-to positioning of mexs on mass deposits. (I wish templates that had mexs would similarly snap to mass deposits.)

4. Upgradeable structures make templating difficult because t1 engineers don't have access to templates with t2+ technology in them.

I don't see how it would be game breaking to have a standing order "attempt to build mex on nearest unoccupied mass deposit."

Then I could just focus on the tactical/strategic elements.

But hell maybe you're right maybe I'm laying the wrong game. If I am it's because the genre is misnamed.

Some alternatives:
Realtime Clicking Game
Realtime Economics Game
Realtime Tactical Game

Statistics: Posted by Innomen — 10 Feb 2014, 23:11

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-10T09:52:30+02:00

Creating optimal build orders is a fun part of this game in my opinion. If you only want to play a strategy game without micro that FA is so interesting at, I don't think FA is for you (you're probably better of with a Total War game). I'm sure some things could've been altered and automated so you could focus on strategy and other micro that makes it really interesting, but maintaining a good eco is part of Sup Com.

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 10 Feb 2014, 09:52

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-07T20:17:53+02:00

Szakalot wrote:
I see your point but you kind of went with it ; )

I just want to minimize the minimum skill 'floor' shall we call it, and focus the skill ceiling on creative tasks, such as unit tactics and forward-thinking, rather than 'what is the most optimal build order for this map with x amount of reclaim in y places'.

Absolutely, I agree completely. Even about the part of running with it, I always do that, it's my nature hehe.

Statistics: Posted by Innomen — 07 Feb 2014, 20:17

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-07T19:18:52+02:00

I see your point but you kind of went with it ; )

I just want to minimize the minimum skill 'floor' shall we call it, and focus the skill ceiling on creative tasks, such as unit tactics and forward-thinking, rather than 'what is the most optimal build order for this map with x amount of reclaim in y places'.

Statistics: Posted by Szakalot — 07 Feb 2014, 19:18

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-07T17:43:52+02:00

Szakalot wrote:
Sure, but I'm talking about massive t1-t2 armies, it takes more time than it should to evaluate the composition.

Imo, if you have radar (intel) and scouted that army, you should be able to at least select it and tell EXACTLY what is in it. Supcom has already a prohibitive amount of 'basic knowledge' that you absolutely need to get your head around in order to get good. If you could select enemy units, game would rely more on strategy and positioning, rather than stroke of luck/PC specifications.

You should consider the social context of RTS games.

Like zombie movies they thrive partly by making players feel smarter than they are.

"Strategy" here is a misnomer.

What RTS games sell in part is the ability to feel smart doing something that could easily be automated.

"Look at me I'm a general! I'm ordering units around! ~clicks each mass deposit~"

The vast bulk of RTS actions are actually tactical, not strategic.

Almost nothing in FAF gets delegated.

To really experience faf as a strategy game, the closest you can get is to play with someone else as an ally or with an AI ally. That way you can let them focus on the mundane tasks and you focus on the bigger picture.

I think you should be able to deploy a friendly AI as a unit to go around and build mexs and storage.

Patton protected his supply lines, he didn't micro manage his quarter masters. See what I mean?

In effect, you're asking for a different genre of game, in which case I highly recommend warlords battle cry 3. In that game each unit has a whole panel of behavior profiles. One of which is "seek and destroy." You still have to manage the economy etc of course, but your units really feel alive and intelligent, as opposed to puppets that only move when the string is pulled.

That's why I like playing with an AI ally and just supporting/defending them into victory. Just yesterday I played a game and didn't even make a single kill. I just flooded the AI with aid in the form of build assist and shield construction.

(The allied victory and share resources buttons don't do anything as far as I can tell fwiw.)

Statistics: Posted by Innomen — 07 Feb 2014, 17:43

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-07T17:01:02+02:00

Sure, but I'm talking about massive t1-t2 armies, it takes more time than it should to evaluate the composition.

Imo, if you have radar (intel) and scouted that army, you should be able to at least select it and tell EXACTLY what is in it. Supcom has already a prohibitive amount of 'basic knowledge' that you absolutely need to get your head around in order to get good. If you could select enemy units, game would rely more on strategy and positioning, rather than stroke of luck/PC specifications.

Statistics: Posted by Szakalot — 07 Feb 2014, 17:01

Re: Feature Request: Donate units.

2014-02-06T22:57:29+02:00

to get info you hover mouse on enemy unit...

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 06 Feb 2014, 22:57