Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-15T05:23:53+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Veterancy instant heal is bad, maybe the worst think in this beautiful game. I realy hate it and i am sure that it is here more people with same opinion.
____
Why it is bad?
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Its bad because it total ruin a logic of game, -> self destruction of big T1/T2 army is best defense.
Its bad because it is unpredictable -> T4 gunship had 1300 hp you send all you 10 ASF and after one second he had 11K hp, Or you are going with ACU against 5K HP megalith for overcharge, and then he had insta heal for 16K and you are death!
Its bad because its unfair -> you send many and many against one unit and he go out from battle with more hp like he had before he start be damaged!
_________
What do with it?
....
Solution can be more complicate and uncomplicated.
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Complicate is better solution but it is complicate and it will be problem do it.
______
Uncomplicated is very easy to do, and will fix mostly of all veterancy problems.

Make 2 changes
1. Cancel instant heal after giving next veterancy level (dont ocur on ACU) only bring more max HP.
2. Add regeneration ratio for next veterancy level 2x
......

Easy to do and bring more strategy, logic and pleasure for game

IMO it would be better to only allow units to heal for the amount of max health gained. Would be better for overall game play and far less unbalancing when applied to experimentals.

Also... Engineers and factories should gain veterancy for building, reclaiming and assisting. (4DC units already do this)
Units that both build and fight can gain veterancy from both. Hence your ACU can level up by assisting its own base.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 15 Feb 2014, 05:23

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-10T06:38:50+02:00

We now have 6 pages of people rehashing their ideas with no effective engagement with each other's ideas. There is nothing new to see here.

WE GET IT! There is no failure of comprehension. It is simply that people are not convinced or are concerned about the ramifications for balance. Or they are simply don't see the need for change. Rehashing such arguments will not convince anyone.

All the possible ideas for veterancy changes have been tabled and discussed. This thread now serves no further purpose.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 10 Feb 2014, 06:38

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-10T02:29:33+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
What i see as ultimate argument, is when you compare two army.

First one Galactic colosus alone
Second one Galactic colosus with 100T1 tanks.

When this two army weaker and cheaper versus stronger and 25% more expensive meat togeter in field then weaker and cheaper win with cca 40% of hp. And stronger and expensive lose!!! And not only lose but totaly lose when damage enemy on 40% less like alone.

That is totally unfair, and illogical.

I don't really see how you figured out this outcome. For one the lone GC would only get one rank of veterancy from the tanks and it would have to destroy almost all of them before it gets that rank up. Second the GC's will automatically target one another so the lone one would have to manually target the opposing tanks. I don't see how the lone GC wins this fight.

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 10 Feb 2014, 02:29

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-10T01:09:14+02:00

Apologies for the delay in response, but I have a brand new $700 video card that just does not want to work, so priorities....

Mycen wrote:
I think that lower-tier units are perfectly fine even in the late game. They just aren't useful on the front lines of combat in a pitched battle. They are still useful for raiding, harassing, and distracting. They're still useful for getting in the enemy's backfield, for following through the gaps in enemy lines created by a successful attack, or for being quickly produced to respond to an unexpected threat or opportunity.

Obviously the effectiveness of lower tier units in the front line in the late stages of the game is highly subjective depending on the situation. But should their presence by just being there and being within striking range of the immediate enemy forces be a liability beyond just losing the units?

Mycen wrote:
They just shouldn't be pitted against T3/T4, which will walk over them. You say that "real massive battles" are what makes SupCom special, but you're forgetting what else makes SupCom special: Incredibly huge, powerful units that steamroll the opposition in incredible fashion. If large units don't have veterancy they will never inspire panic or fear, they'll simply be another piece of a player's arsenal, nothing special. Opponents won't say, "Oh shit, they got a GC! Retreat, retreat!" It won't garner any special reaction at all. They''ll just throw a stream of units at it and wear it down. Which is a lot easier to do than you seem to think.

A freshly built experimental already outputs this level of carnage which you described (plus the ability to actually stomp on a unit including the ACU). What I believe you want is for the *potential* for these units to act as an 'I Win' button with very little to no support in that field of combat (example: land experimental on land). Just because you were able to build it, you wish for that unit to not only break through the enemy, but be very nearly unstoppable as it swats away unit after unit gaining health. You already can micro it effectively as it is one unit with great range and dps so most of this can already be done as you can select what threat to eliminate in what order. Is it really necessary for it to gain health as it is doing this so the opposition has to work much harder, or worse, remove battle units (and support units) in order to have a chance to stop it?

Why is it such a bad thing to send a stream of units to wear down these goliaths? Why must that be punished (beyond just losing the units and feeding you mass)? With a few support units, especially units that are designed for dealing with that, the experimental can keep on trucking. Free health for attacking is not needed.

Mycen wrote:
You can say that in most situations T4s are rushed out right away without support, and proceed to win the game straightaway, but an unsupported T4 usually ends up as a mass donation. They're easy to see coming, and they're very slow. If you know your opponent has one (and you should, because you should be scouting) and your opponent really has poured all their resources into a fast T4, you can take all of those lower-tier units that you're holding onto and maneuver them around to smash the enemy base while the T4 is on its way to yours. If it's impossible to do that, well then maybe you should give maps other than isis/setons/gap a try.

An early experimental in team games is a good example of what you are saying. Depending on the team either outcome is a possibility. For 1v1 though the ability to field an experimental gets more challenging and may need to take in more variables such as terrain. For choke type maps which you have identified (with 2 out of the 3 in the rank ladder) the assault type experimentals may seem more appealing. For open type maps it may not be so. If you are building an experimental and you see a large build up of forces (as you say, you should be scouting) then you may expend some resources in some defenses. As you move the now completed experimental near the enemy base they move their forces to hit your flank. The distance to go from their front to now your flank may be longer than to take your experimental back to your base and attack there. After the attack, your base may have taken damage, but you have a vetted experimental, and a nice mass pile. A very big advantage.

From the casts I have seen from good players an experimental usually comes into play after an advantage has been made or a specific utility is needed. In most cases, where the experimental is used against an appropriate level of force and not wasted, it completes its mission. Veterancy just allows the advantage to just keep growing.

Mycen wrote:
This doesn't convince me at all. In your sandbox test, you included some Harbingers with the GC to protect it against the T1 arties, right? Did you also include the fortifications and point defenses that tend to be what a GC is attacking? Because if the Harbs are getting shredded by T2 PD and a few T3 bots they won't do a very good job of wiping out the T1 arties, now will they?

What I might suggest is, rather than misleading sandbox tests, from now on when you play games, Ctrl+k all of your T4s when they get down to around 1000hp. Show us those replays and we can start evaluating how useful they are without veterancy.

I used the Harbingers as support to cover the GC's back side, not as front line troops for most of the time. I tried to keep the battle mass equivalent. If we include static defenses, can we not include mobile artillery or other mass equivalent forces?

If an experimental is down to 1000hp then there are three possibilities that I can think of: it was fighting a superior force and was not used effectively and thus wasted; it completed the objective it was sent to do, or it absorbed hit points away from the force that was sent to complete the objective.

In the first case, veterancy favors the foolish/lucky. In the second and third cases, veterancy just rewards an advantage that has already been attained, and thus hurts the loser unnecessarily and unjustly. His forces are already destroyed and he cannot risk sending in 10 or so artillery to just finish off the experimental or has to self destruct his engineers for fear of granting it additional health.

A 1000hp assault experimental represents that the enemy brought the fight to you. Most of these experimentals have longer ranges than most mobile units. If you are allowing it to be hit by static defenses you are using it as a meat shield to close the gap for your other forces to come in.

In summary (because I think we are just repeating things over and over):

Veterancy is bad because:
1. Rewards an already good unit because it can do what it does so well, that it just makes it harder to stop.
2. Hurts the opponent unnecessarily as his units are already dead, no need to make the enemy any more stronger.
3. Pushes lower tier out of critical or close call fights for fear of granting the enemy veterancy.
4. Forces you to self destruct units for fear of granting the enemy veterancy.

Back to the video card.

Statistics: Posted by The Mak — 10 Feb 2014, 01:09

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-10T00:57:49+02:00

that is a point, and while i do think that veterancy is fine as it is,

i think the best way to solve this problem would be to adjust the veterancy values of units:
right now the values are 1 for t1 3 for t2 and 6 for t3
if you kill a t1 unit you get 1 point of veterancy and 3 for a t2.. ect

changing these to 1, 6, 36
and adjusting veterancy rates according,
could make things very interesting...

t1 might see a see late game as cannon fodder, or maybe even as an anti experimental weapon...

but to do so would require rebalancing of pretty much every units veterancy rates, and i think this is too much to do, but it would be great as a mod...

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 10 Feb 2014, 00:57

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-10T00:48:03+02:00

What i see as ultimate argument, is when you compare two army.

First one Galactic colosus alone
Second one Galactic colosus with 100T1 tanks.

When this two army weaker and cheaper versus stronger and 25% more expensive meat togeter in field then weaker and cheaper win with cca 40% of hp. And stronger and expensive lose!!! And not only lose but totaly lose when damage enemy on 40% less like alone.

That is totally unfair, and illogical.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 10 Feb 2014, 00:48

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-07T16:52:19+02:00

Sheppard doesn't need a one-sentence summary - there have been no new ideas presented since page three, we're just hashing out details.

Your idea would work fairly well, I think - too bad this balance patch period is over. Make sure to bring it up next time.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 07 Feb 2014, 16:52

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-07T11:26:44+02:00

Sheppard wanted a one sentence summary. Which, I note, you have not yet given.

As for my suggestion:
I would like to have a veterancy system which does not change the percentage of HP - so that the effectiveness of veterancy is scaled with the unit's remaining HP.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 07 Feb 2014, 11:26

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-07T08:07:35+02:00

The Mak wrote:
Oh I think you have the time to read this and other walls of texts. I have registered just before you by a few months and I just went over 100 posts.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
ColonelSheppard wrote:Can you make your point in once sentence?

mycen is saying lower tech units will not occur in late game, becase you are teching for avoinding them.

Perhaps you ought to refrain from speaking for others if you are going to make woefully inaccurate summaries of their opinions...

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Mycen but what is bad on lower units in late game? I think that T1 would be 50% of all armys and mixed with others tech. For real masive battles, isnt it what we like, for what is a supcom special? uber op experimental against lower tech make strategy for fast build and fast kill acu and game over. In most situation early exp is going alone or not only early but mostly all exp, whitout any suport, what is best solution today but for game feeling, its wrong.

I never said that lower-tier units are bad. You and others are the ones who are saying that they are bad because they provide veterancy.

I think that lower-tier units are perfectly fine even in the late game. They just aren't useful on the front lines of combat in a pitched battle. They are still useful for raiding, harassing, and distracting. They're still useful for getting in the enemy's backfield, for following through the gaps in enemy lines created by a successful attack, or for being quickly produced to respond to an unexpected threat or opportunity.

They just shouldn't be pitted against T3/T4, which will walk over them. You say that "real massive battles" are what makes SupCom special, but you're forgetting what else makes SupCom special: Incredibly huge, powerful units that steamroll the opposition in incredible fashion. If large units don't have veterancy they will never inspire panic or fear, they'll simply be another piece of a player's arsenal, nothing special. Opponents won't say, "Oh shit, they got a GC! Retreat, retreat!" It won't garner any special reaction at all. They''ll just throw a stream of units at it and wear it down. Which is a lot easier to do than you seem to think.

You can say that in most situations T4s are rushed out right away without support, and proceed to win the game straightaway, but an unsupported T4 usually ends up as a mass donation. They're easy to see coming, and they're very slow. If you know your opponent has one (and you should, because you should be scouting) and your opponent really has poured all their resources into a fast T4, you can take all of those lower-tier units that you're holding onto and maneuver them around to smash the enemy base while the T4 is on its way to yours. If it's impossible to do that, well then maybe you should give maps other than isis/setons/gap a try.

The Mak wrote:
I mentioned the sandbox that I performed in my last post. With veterancy, the Zthuees get close to taking it down but the GC can keep going thanks to the instant health boosts. Without veterancy (through a mod I have) the Zthuees are a real threat, but if you mix in a few lower tech counters of Zthuees (in my test 8 Harbingers), the Zthuees fall with minimal loses to the Aeon force.

This doesn't convince me at all. In your sandbox test, you included some Harbingers with the GC to protect it against the T1 arties, right? Did you also include the fortifications and point defenses that tend to be what a GC is attacking? Because if the Harbs are getting shredded by T2 PD and a few T3 bots they won't do a very good job of wiping out the T1 arties, now will they?

What I might suggest is, rather than misleading sandbox tests, from now on when you play games, Ctrl+k all of your T4s when they get down to around 1000hp. Show us those replays and we can start evaluating how useful they are without veterancy.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 07 Feb 2014, 08:07

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-06T21:05:35+02:00

Im not sure what my opinion is, but i always thought that self destruction your t1 army or your engies in your base is a strange thing because its just silly. I mean if you have an army of like 30 t1 tanks/arties you cant throw it against the early monkey because it will get more health than before the fight.

But on the other side this veterancy-insta heal has always been in the game and seems like its part of it.

Statistics: Posted by Kulu — 06 Feb 2014, 21:05

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-06T20:18:53+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
I hope you don't expect me to read your wall of texts.
Can you make your point in once sentence?

Oh I think you have the time to read this and other walls of texts. I have registered just before you by a few months and I just went over 100 posts. But here is a nice summary of where I stand on the issue: Veterancy Instant Heal by The Mak.

Aurion wrote:
You need to watch out though. I think t1 arty gets even stronger then they already are (especially Zthuees stay good for a whole game already). As a plus they can also now be effective experimental killers...

I mentioned the sandbox that I performed in my last post. With veterancy, the Zthuees get close to taking it down but the GC can keep going thanks to the instant health boosts. Without veterancy (through a mod I have) the Zthuees are a real threat, but if you mix in a few lower tech counters of Zthuees (in my test 8 Harbingers), the Zthuees fall with minimal loses to the Aeon force.

Statistics: Posted by The Mak — 06 Feb 2014, 20:18

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-06T17:25:55+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
Can you make your point in once sentence?

mycen is saying lower tech units will not occur in late game, becase you are teching for avoinding them. And Mark is saying that all units should have a place in game, becase its more pretty, and you are teching for has more option in whole game.

so Again:
Mycen - teching for change game solution
mark + I - teching for more solution

______________
Mycen but what is bad on lower units in late game? I think that T1 would be 50% of all armys and mixed with others tech. For real masive battles, isnt it what we like, for what is a supcom special? uber op experimental against lower tech make strategy for fast build and fast kill acu and game over. In most situation early exp is going alone or not only early but mostly all exp, whitout any suport, what is best solution today but for game feeling, its wrong.

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 06 Feb 2014, 17:25

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-06T12:05:55+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
I have a very simple solution which would fix your problem entirely. Have veterancy increase the maximum HP and the regeneration rate as it currently does. But reduce the new HP according to the current HP level. So that the HP does not change percentage when the unit levels up.

This means that a healthy unit on 100% will receive the full benefit of veterancy. But a unit which is almost dead will not get the same HP boost. It would alleviate those annoying near miss snipe attempts, while also maintaining the integrity and value of the veterancy system.

This Idea is really nice, because it's simple, doesnt change fundementals but one thing: an almost dead XP or (S)ACU remains almost dead if it vets. For a healthy unit getting vet is almost the same. Gameplay would change a bit but not drastically. You wouldnt just throw all your t1/t2 units at an healty XP, but you could kill an almost dead one which is attacking your fortified position. The impact on early ACU fights must be evaluated but i think the vet steps have to be adjusted a little bit then.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 06 Feb 2014, 12:05

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-06T11:30:13+02:00

I hope you don't expect me to read your wall of texts.
Can you make your point in once sentence?

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 06 Feb 2014, 11:30

Re: Veterancy instant heal

2014-02-06T11:11:49+02:00

You need to watch out though. I think t1 arty gets even stronger then they already are (especially Zthuees stay good for a whole game already). As a plus they can also now be effective experimental killers...

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 06 Feb 2014, 11:11