Forged Alliance Forever

Re: -SOLVED- ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-13T22:02:09+02:00

just to add this:

pip wrote:
General anti air change:
All dedicated anti air units and structures target Experimental air units in priority

Land units:

ACU:
T3 engineering suit regen reate fixed:
NewRegenRate = 35, (from 15)
RAS upgrade:
mass output = +13 (from +14)
Energy output = +3800 (from +3300)
...
link

what i want to say here is, that the regen rate for t3 is fixed, i do not kjnow why. typo or just to slow before?
this compared with the regen when you have managed to kill120 is.. you know what I mean

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 13 Sep 2013, 22:02

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced update: NOT

2013-09-13T19:47:24+02:00

Just to make it easy for those who do not want o really waste their time in reading the whole thread:
No problem anymore.
I was arguing that the gun upgrade and the tech upgrade are unbalanced.
you can not gain as much HP/s and extra HP when you go for the gun upgrade and try to stay there.
problem i did not know is: experience does stack. so if you go for another upgrade, you take the experience with you, no matter what you do change at your commander.
anyway, as argued above, even i you manage to kill 120 enemies in the first minutes, a commander that has upgraded to T2 at that time (and if he is not spamming out canonfodder for the enemy the commander can not make his kills) is better off with his t2 abilities and those HP/s and HP bonus. he does nto have to kill for this and has only invested approx. twice as much energy+mass. and no risk in being killed that way.
this also is true for the aeon commander who also has this problem..

then i was talking about the microwave laser the cybran has and was testing if the misbehavior i observed many times can be reproduced in short. no, i was not able to reproduce this bug. all of you know how the monkey sometimes shoots in the dirt or has a fire malfunction. also he is sometimes shooting when there is no enemy but is shootin in the sand while walking..
anyway, i am through with this because i will adapt my playstyle, ha, funny.
i upgrade the subject to:

- SOLVED - ACU Upgrades are unbalanced update: NOT

Problem solved?! who knows...
But if you read through all this mess I produced, you'll find out..

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 13 Sep 2013, 19:47

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-10T12:40:38+02:00

So what exactly is underpowered for cybran com? I only see you complaining about no tech + gun and the lower hp

Sorry but saying the cybran commander is up because of that is ridicolous, i see some replays but they arent showing anything in the terms.

So excuse me but in this 4 sites of dicussion icant find a single viable agrument for your statement

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 10 Sep 2013, 12:40

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-10T05:47:46+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
Mycen, please, can you tell me/us how you aim in a better way?

I'm no coder, so I don't know how it would work. My point was simply that I'm sure someone can recode the ACU mazer so that it is more accurate. Seeing as the ML mazer does not point into the ground whenever the ML is moving, the same must be possible for the ACU. But as to how to implement that fix, I don't know, sorry.

Nombringer, I don't agree with your point about "choice". To begin with, brushing cloak off as "limited to an anti-snipe mechanism" seems like an odd thing to say - almost completely removing the possibility of a snipe seems pretty darn valuable to me. If you have air superiority, or even local air superiority, the cloak+mazer can be effective for defending your base against experimentals. (Except GCs, obviously.) Saying it's not a real choice is not true. Also, going by what you describe, there isn't much "choice" involved in the other ACU upgrades either. Most of the upgrades are only useful at certain points in certain types of games, and of the ones where there are real tradeoffs, there aren't more than two or three - not a big difference compared to the Cybran one. I don't really think that it's a big deal that upgrades become 'obsolete' at different points in the game, it makes sense.

Again, the primary role of the ACU is to command everything else, not participate in combat itself. So for the endgame configurations of ACUs to boil down to one of only a few configurations is fine by me. I personally don't think that the ACUs should be emphasized more than they already have been by the changes to the deathnuke, overcharge, etc.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 10 Sep 2013, 05:47

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-09T03:02:00+02:00

You do know that upgrading your ACU to T3 takes huge amounts of mass / energy , yes ? there is no way you can get T3 on ACU without also having a freaking booming eco. Atleast not before the other ACU gets those 120 kills.

Cause you can get that much kills within the first 5-10 minutes

Statistics: Posted by Shinzok — 09 Sep 2013, 03:02

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-08T00:49:24+02:00

update: sorry, it os not reproducable.
who is interested, here are two test games i made so far. they are.. replays
there is no shooting in the dirt, this is straight forward shooting in the head..!

hey, do not expect something great

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 08 Sep 2013, 00:49

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-07T20:15:25+02:00

Well my opinion is (after i know now that the gathered experience will stack) that you can easily use all the good things the cybran possesess.. but you have to switch in late game.
so you can begin with cloak and the gun upgrade, later with the torpedo if you go into the water. even before you go in the water, you may decide to go to tech2.
later then, you switch to the mazer and get rid of the torpedo of course. before you do that, you do the cloak upgrade also.
the mass&energy you put in the gun upgrade and the torpedo before in case you switch to the tech2 & then tech3 or/and the mazer is so tiny, so laughable late game, it is a flee shit compare to the energy you need for the laser mazer microwave whatever you call it gun.
it would be hard the other way around that is a no go..:
when you decide to go in the water and make the torpedo launcher when you already have the laser. haha, THAT would be a no go..
also it would be a totally wate when you decide to change from tech3 to a gun upgrade because you feel like shooting around a bit in late game... but here it would be not THAT expensive.
try fighting with a cybran against a seraphim with both fitted out for a fight in the field. who wins? if the laser hits good, its the cybran.
needless to say that the cloak is not affecting anything because the ACUs see always the cloaked. but the HP and regen rate is important here...
if the laser is not hitting fast enough, the seraphim wins..
if you want a video where i constantly miss, tell me. but dont argue with me when i use fraps for it..

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 07 Sep 2013, 20:15

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-07T05:31:59+02:00

Disregarding balance completely (It's perfectly fine IMO)

The cybran ACU is all well and good, however there is an inherent lack of decision making present in it's upgrades.

In most games the cybran ACU has only one real choice; gun or tech two.

Stealth-Cloak/Teleport/RAS:

Stealth is a very nice, very cheap and a complete and utter no brainer as soon as you have the opportunity. It's cost means you are very rarely having to decide between radar stealth and any of the other back upgrades, RAS, cloak, or teleport. While I love the upgrade, and think it fits very will with the faction in general, you are never really having to 'choose' it over another.

Cybran RAS, once again, is very rarely called upon to make a decision with, the other two contenders at that time if the game are Cloak, that cannot be offorded until RAS is almost obsolete, and teleport, that suffers from the same problem.

Now we come to the only other two upgrades that occupy the same timeframe within the game as each other, full stealth, and Teleport. While full stealth can arguably be afforded before teleport, it use is limited to an anti-snipe mechanism. By the time you can afford this both you and your opponent will have the necessary power to make tech three air, and no matter how much health it gives you, you will be unable to use it in order to fight land units, even coupled with a mazer, because as soon as the enemy brings out a single tech three scout or Omni. It could be used in order to minimize the risk of staying in a firebase and attempting to defend it, however, due to cybrans shields, point defense, and artillery, it is simply a waste to have a large firebase at the point in the game when you can of aford this upgrade. In short, this upgrade is simply to useless to occupy a regular game. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but it is simply not worth it.

The only upgrades occupying the cybran ACU late game, are Tekeport and mazer, the timeframe where other upgrades are position'd simply mean's that I am never 'Choosing' anything, other than gun and tech two

Torpedo's/mazer:

Torpedo's are another great an unique upgrade, stuck along the same arm as.... The mazer!? There is simply no situation I can think of that actually calls for a decision to be made between these upgrades. By the time you can afford a mazer, the time for torpedo's is completely over.

I would love to hear people opinions on if they think this is okay, and hypothetically, what they would do to encourage more diversity in the upgrades to the cybran ACU.

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 07 Sep 2013, 05:31

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-06T17:33:35+02:00

Thanks for your replay too. I read your advice in another thread and you have helped me with this a lot.
When it comes to the laser not hitting - i tell you, lucky you! it is very hard for me. Maybe I play THAT confusing, that even my aiming is confusing to the PC/Game mechanics :-/

Mycen, please, can you tell me/us how you aim in a better way?

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 06 Sep 2013, 17:33

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-06T12:19:34+02:00

On the Cybran ACU. The stealth upgrade+the gun upgrade lets you outrange the T2 Point Defense vision radius. I know that the enemy can scout you with planes, but you can just step back a bit and wait for the scouts to be shot down and few people actually do this scouting. I've seen several replays (some time ago though) in which the Cybran ACU singlehandedly beats PD creeps while the Cybran army stops an enemy army for the time being. At no moment, I have seen an air scout trying to pin the enemy ACU down.

I've also seen replays in which the Cybran ACU is used to storm the enemy PDs. DON'T, you outrange by a few points, USE IT, because these few points are as valuable as to outrange by a million as long as the enemy doesn't scout. If he does scout, hit and run. You won't be so successful in beating the enemy in a 10:1 resource value, but you'll definetely slow him down as well as he wanted to slow you down with his creep.

The range upgrade is applied to the maser upgrade. So if the match spirals out of control to the point that this high-energy cost weapon comes into play, you outrange the enemy ACU (and T2 point defense positions vision range) with a 4K DPS weapon. NOTE: Those targeting issues are new to me. I've never had any problem with my ACU's maser.

The Cybran ACU is fully based on that little bit of additional range and a strong advantage in intel. Use that: The enemy ACU can't target you, it can't even see you if you kite correctly and if the game goes to T3: know where the enemy omni sensor is. Then you know where you can walk.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 06 Sep 2013, 12:19

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-03T19:42:28+02:00

I agree to all points, you are right.
Please could you explain Mycen how the laser has to be handled right?

Ok, the gun upgrade is ok then, the experience stacks, thats good!
Thank you all for the good advice!

P.S.: While testing the firebeetles i found that they maybe do not stack? I mean if I use 20 of them, they still do not kill an fully upgraded and experienced ACU. am i doing something wrong (again)?
It is impossible to come to the ACU or some other stuff that has to be destroyed even after the last patch that is not chain reacting them. at the other hand they were nerfed.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 03 Sep 2013, 19:42

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-02T23:17:10+02:00

Not just the stationary tml, the mobile tml is horrible to fight also.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 02 Sep 2013, 23:17

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-02T23:14:59+02:00

HappySmurf wrote:
Cybran acu always sucked :/ paper acu has or did have a slughtly higher dps for lack of health.. but getting gun and stealth or though nice lacks that HP as yu mention where as UEF can get gun and tech :/ same for aeon at least 1 of the guns and sera not sure ptob tech and gun too :/

If cybran ACU had more hp, say 12000, it would be an instant victory for cybrans early game, especially in small land maps.
I am a "fanatic" cybran, but I want to earn my victories. The last thing I want is the lesser factions whine for imbalances,
Combine this fact that at my poor skill level, uef, aeon and sera shit their pants, when they see an early ACU in their bases and almost always hide behind trees to accomplish an early t2 and you get the idea....
Plus, the cybran do have
an early cloak for the acu
a t1 gunship that contrary to common belief can be devastating
mobile anti air that can switch easily to land
t1 tank with engineering capabilities
If the enemy somehow evades the t1 storm then there are other menaces
t2 bomber
t2 stationary tml
t2 mobile stealth(for those who know )
etc.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 02 Sep 2013, 23:14

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-02T21:37:37+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
Mycen wrote:Yeah 4000 DPS weapon, T1 sub OHKO, invisibility... Really sucks...

4000 DPS don't mean anything if you shoot in the dirt...
what do you mean with T1 sub OHKO?!
At least you do not come up with T1 gunship...

I've had the same problems you describe with the Mazer, but that's an aiming issue that can be fixed, not an inherent problem in upgrade slots/choices that the Cybran ACU has.

And as far as the Nanite torps, yeah, I mean T1 subs. The torpedo launcher costs as much mass as four T1 subs - not very pricey - but it can wipe out whole T1 fleets. On a map like White Fire the torp launcher can make the ACU even more effective in water than any gun ACU is on land, walking around to raid their shorelines, but able to destroy any ships sent to chase it when it retreats into the water. Your example of gunships is actually fairly appropriate, imagine if an ACU had a cheap upgrade that could shoot down any T1 aircraft. That would be very effective, no? The Torps are the same thing navally.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 02 Sep 2013, 21:37

Re: ACU Upgrades are unbalanced

2013-09-01T20:50:24+02:00

HappySmurf wrote:
Cybran acu always sucked :/ paper acu has or did have a slughtly higher dps for lack of health.. but getting gun and stealth or though nice lacks that HP as yu mention where as UEF can get gun and tech :/ same for aeon at least 1 of the guns and sera not sure ptob tech and gun too :/

ahh, i love to hear someone seeing it as it is
you are right, aeon has the same problem, only gun OR tech upgrade.

Mycen wrote:
Yeah 4000 DPS weapon, T1 sub OHKO, invisibility... Really sucks...

4000 DPS don't mean anything if you shoot in the dirt...
what do you mean with T1 sub OHKO?!
At least you do not come up with T1 gunship...

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 01 Sep 2013, 20:50