Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-24T21:49:19+02:00

You are gonna tell me that you don't have a spare engy that can reclaim enemy walls? Or that air control is so tight you cannot get a transport through? Building a substantial amount of walls takes time, during which you can send a LAB to kill the engy or a bomber, that will kill the engy and something else.

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 24 Oct 2016, 21:49

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-24T14:26:40+02:00

Blodir wrote:
The counter to triple walls is triple eco

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 24 Oct 2016, 14:26

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-22T06:07:08+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
thats a nice thought lich but i think it just shows you dont abuse walls enough. im not saying walls are op because i have them used against me, its because i use them and laugh at opponents, so does the rest of [e] clan.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 22 Oct 2016, 06:07

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-21T21:17:28+02:00

Walls are not broken. No need to fix what's not broken. Better turn your sight to the things that are broken. I'd cite an example but then you'd say that Lich King turns every thread into a Titan discussion.

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by Lieutenant Lich — 21 Oct 2016, 21:17

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-21T19:18:54+02:00

I honestly don't care much at all about wall nerfs, you could make them cost 500 mass instead and I still wouldn't care

One thing is, when you build walls, you essentially give up map control

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 21 Oct 2016, 19:18

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-21T19:09:43+02:00

thats a nice thought but i think it just shows you dont abuse walls enough. im not saying walls are op because i have them used against me, its because i use them and laugh at opponents, so does the rest of [e] clan.

i heard you can ctrl k you own walls and not enemy wall's so you can get out but he cant get in.
for added bonus you mess with opponents head since he starts to think its impassible and then suddenly boom.

anyway its not like you even need to do that. the point of walls is that you can counter opponent spam for a fraction of the cost, and get mexes instead, then get harbs or some shit while he sits in his base unsure what to do (other than reclaim his own spam or someshit). even nicer in teamgames and ffa, there was some nice replay with zlo where he builds 500 walls and no one attacks him at all just because its so daunting to even start to reclaim them all.

faf IS absurdly stagnant, and your response is reading into it too much. i didnt say that was bad or good or anything, other than it simply being the case.

for an example look at stellaris - in one patch they doubled all the ranges of every weapon.

meanwhile in faf a huge nerf is removing 20hp/s for an upgrade on a unit with 12000+ hp

the scale simply doesnt compare. faf balance is changing way less than other games. im not saying it should change more, just that this is a fact.

however i am implying that you are blowing this out of proportion. i dunno how many games you played with nerfed walls, but since that change was in eq for like 25 years now i played quite a few, it doesnt make them useless and they are still the epic unit they are. i would suggest cooling off with icecreamer instead of complaining against literally everyone on the forums.

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 21 Oct 2016, 19:09

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-21T18:50:56+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
and also faf is absurdly stagnant already in terms of balance, especially when you compare it to other games and stuff, no 100% dps buffs, so theres that too.

To repeat what I said before in another thread;

TheKoopa wrote:
That's because we came to play Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance, not Supreme Blackops: Revenge of the ACU

Also applicable to why no one plays EQ and why no one likes zock balance

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 21 Oct 2016, 18:50

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-10-21T18:02:13+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
i actually think that this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing is terrible. it encourages stagnation and acceptance of bad/mediocre things.

If something is bad/mediocre then it is broken and we should change it. I just don't see any problem whatsoever with the way walls currently work. They are not bad/mediocre/broken/etc. They work as intended.

Exotic_Retard wrote:
also so you know, wall hp is nerfed because just a wall on its own is op. they are bscly free and you can build them on almost any map and temporarily turn it into thermo, and if he gets up to you and reclaims 1 wall, you delayed him for a min or two, and even then why stop at one wall and not build 2,3,10?

...because then you can't get out?

Yes, walls are good at blocking units getting into your base -- they are also good at blocking units getting out of your base. The point of a wall is to block things. That's why you get 4k hp for one mass. If you took away the ability of a tank to deal damage, have range, and move, you'd have to buff it in other ways so you're getting your mass' worth -- hp is the only thing left.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I just see this as "Oh, this one time someone used walls really effectively and I didn't know how to counter them, so rather than me learning how, let's remove them from the game."

Exotic_Retard wrote:
and also faf is absurdly stagnant already in terms of balance, especially when you compare it to other games and stuff, no 100% dps buffs, so theres that too.

What do you mean "stagnant?" Like, "we aren't changing things?" Why do things have to constantly be changing for a game to be good? The number one complaint from people I've played with lately is "Things are changing so fast I can't figure what I'm doing wrong." It doesn't matter if it's 2% more balanced if it ruins somebody's play style every week, and when they figure it out, you change it again.

speed2 wrote:
for me it's not so easy to bring engineers with the attacking army and micro them to reclaim walls under fire without getting killed. But I'm just a casual player, so I guess others are better.

Make a shield or a stealth unit and attach it to the engy. If you're really in a position to get past those walls you should have no problem keeping an engie alive and/or just destroying the wall (a few arty need less than a minute to make a hole big enough to go through). If it's a tie for units anyways, you wouldn't make it past the wall anyways.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 21 Oct 2016, 18:02

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-30T18:22:48+02:00

i actually think that this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing is terrible. it encourages stagnation and acceptance of bad/mediocre things.
something much better would be: "if your change improves it, then improve it", that way we can actually have progress.

also so you know, wall hp is nerfed because just a wall on its own is op. they are bscly free and you can build them on almost any map and temporarily turn it into thermo, and if he gets up to you and reclaims 1 wall, you delayed him for a min or two, and even then why stop at one wall and not build 2,3,10?
the pd thing is mostly irrelevant here.

and also faf is absurdly stagnant already in terms of balance, especially when you compare it to other games and stuff, no 100% dps buffs, so theres that too.

have a nice day

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 30 Sep 2016, 18:22

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-30T18:13:12+02:00

Come on, walls are super OP for one mass you get 4k HP, I believe in your master skills, but for me it's not so easy to bring engineers with the attacking army and micro them to reclaim walls under fire without getting killed. But I'm just a casual player, so I guess others are better.

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 30 Sep 2016, 18:13

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-30T18:04:18+02:00

speed2 wrote:
One thing that will reduce this a lot is the lowered wall HP that will arrive with the next patch

Why are we changing everything?

Some changes are necessary. T3 mobile AA is awesome! But I think we were far beyond violating "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" a very, very long time ago. Walls OP? Really? They can be reclaimed in 5 seconds and the solution to losing units to t1 pd is to use the unit made to counter t1 pd, t1 arty.

"Oh, I ran ten tanks into a walled pd, walls OP."

No. T1 pd is countered with arty. It's not OP, you just don't know how to counter it.

What's next? "I got killed by gunships. Gunships OP. Remove them from the game."

No. Make flak.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 30 Sep 2016, 18:04

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-24T17:14:54+02:00

Far as I can recall my fix was for the walls, not the PD'S

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 24 Sep 2016, 17:14

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-24T17:12:35+02:00

Anyone look to see if the hotboxes are overlapping? Keep in mind that the hit box size for PD's and walls should be standardized across all faction's to prevent giving one faction an advantage over another.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 24 Sep 2016, 17:12

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-24T17:03:39+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
after more testing, i guess that vault54's fix indeed does help things (although as i said earlier the bug is not completely fixed)

one thing of note is that this causes the acu to be able to be simply attack the pd ignoring the walls, making them not protect it while its infront.

Well this thread originally was how to make t1 pd not OP by fixing projectiles not go though pd and hitting _backwall_ and that is exactly what Diamond fixes. If you want that frontwall blocks projectiles you can try by keeping bigger hitbox but adding that faulty 'Turret'(ground) targetbone to all factions t1 pd's and removing the correct 'Barrel01'. It may still randomly pick a target between that faulty target bone and middle of hitbox if I remember correctly. But then what stops players building 5 layers of cheap walls around every t1 pd?

Statistics: Posted by Vault54 — 24 Sep 2016, 17:03

Re: Walled T1 point defence OP

2016-09-24T17:07:28+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
right so i looked at both resins fix and the one in diamond mod and it appears they both dont solve the issue of shots passing through point defense.

its certainly something to do with walls being next to the pd - i got a pd next to one diagonal wall and the shots went right through the pd with both fixes applied.
removing the wall fixed the issue instantly. i suspect its related to the collision boxes overlapping; works when you put an acu behind the pd as well, shots just go through the pd but not through the acu

Try changing the hitbox type to sphere and then resize it as required to fit the PD. Spheres have better hit detection overall as they as they are far simpler. Also ensure that the targeted bone is in the middle of the unit and not buried in the ground.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 24 Sep 2016, 14:12