Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-09T20:00:26+02:00

Lack of communication is the big choke-point for development on FAF right now in my opinion. If I am doing dev and need help, its my responsibility to ask for help. If I don't manage to get any help, that's my problem and not the fault of some abstract "community".

Additionally if the server/client/game could use more development/testing, then it seems like a perfect place for the council to step in and make a difference. This is a great opportunity to involve more people in keeping FAF going, and its one I feel like we're missing out on at the moment.

To say that things couldn't have gone significantly better is in my opinion extremely fatalistic. There were loads of bugs, many of which would be easily seen from even cursory checking (I happened to notice several while working on the dev client myself). I'm definitely not trying to get on a high horse here (since I was entirely responsible for some very buggy behaviour), but it did seem to go pretty poorly overall.

I think its an eminently reasonable thing to aim to do a lot better in the future.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 09 Feb 2016, 20:00

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-06T20:54:44+02:00

Am I the only one here who thinks the responsibility for communication lays within the community and not the few developers we have that bust their balls in their spare time? It was no secret this was happening. If people cared enough they would take on the responsibility themselves to inform and spread the message. Evidently they didn't. There are no obligations in volunteer work.

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 06 Feb 2016, 20:54

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-06T20:44:57+02:00

Exotic_Retard wrote:
IceDreamer: Weeeeeel im not that unhappy about the update but you must admit that it could have gone a lot smoother.

See this is just the thing dude. This was that first stepping stone. You all seem to think that this could have gone more smoothly. Well, actually, I disagree... There was simply no realistic way any more testing could have happened than did. No way to DO it more smoothly. All the ways to do it more smoothly require the code that this update was about... Which is paradoxical! Even a quadrupling the number of testers I'm not convinced would have changed a great deal, because that, still, would have been a drop in the ocean. Some stuff just couldn't be anticipated.

At some point you have to stop testing behind the scenes and take the plunge. From what I've been seeing over the last 2 months, the timing was good, the point of diminishing returns of testing had been long hit.

So, could it have gone smoother? Significantly so?

I don't know guys. I just kinda doubt it.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 06 Feb 2016, 20:44

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-06T20:34:04+02:00

the key part here is that all the info channels always show SOMETHING - so you are pretty much conditioned to ignore them. having the "element of surprise" is very important to getting your stuff read. theres always some random stuff in the channel topic and whats new - people just go straight to the find games tab and dont even look at them as soon as faf loads.

if you can hijack the on join message but instead have it 95% of the time display its current thing - when it does change people will notice, but only those that read chat.
you need to change it back soon though or it will go through the same problems as everything else we have.

one interesting idea would be to actually remove something - and then bring it back after a few weeks. for those that actually use it there would be an option to enable it hidden in the menu - hehhehe could even be announced in the channel topic before its removed xDDDD
the point is to refresh the news outlets - and then to use the properly - only giving the info that you need, and REMOVING it after its no longer necessary. (i expect the channel topic to be empty for a little bit after the server update is over.)

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 06 Feb 2016, 20:34

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-06T19:57:30+02:00

Comrade_Shamrock wrote:
Thanks for the picture there Swol. That's another point, the channel topic isn't great for this kind of thing. Four separate points buried into a single message. It detracts from the importance of all of them.

If no one is reading the channel topic, i'd rather get more info to the ones that bother.
It matters very little whether there is a few topics or one, 95% of people won't read it.
IRC does have an on-join message at the top of aeolus which is pretty obvious and eye-catching, and i've asked to re purpose it but those with that ability have not responded.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 06 Feb 2016, 19:57

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-06T17:57:00+02:00

In a less assholeish way, your complaints about communication are valid and will be resolved hopefully in future client/website updates.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 06 Feb 2016, 17:57

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-06T14:22:08+02:00

tatsu wrote:
okay that's a fair point.
I'm now thinking of making a tester's avatar.

Sheeo already has a beta tester avatar lieing around somewhere in slack:
its just that nobody knows about its existence (communication problems surfacing again)

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 06 Feb 2016, 14:22

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-05T20:39:21+02:00

Look at you all... I'm going to be blunt, somewhat sarcastic, and almost definitely told off, but it needs to be said. Look at you all!

"Add this"
"Need this notification here, just put this there"
"Perhaps this news channel would be good"
"Hmm, need separate feeds for tournies and patches!"

For crying out loud, you know what all these things need?

Code

Every single suggestion you can possibly make, every single thing that could ever make a difference, it can't happen without at least one big, underlying code update. OK? This had to happen. This was the gateway to the future. You can't blame a bit of chaos for, oh nooooooo, a few days of not-quite-perfect functionality during the one update designed to get us to the state where we can actually begin to do the things you're all asking for! OK?!

Jeez... Honestly, we're one of the most successful community-run gaming projects in history. Major, AAA title studios have week-long down-time with some updates. They don't communicate, they just shut it down. Games are released half-finished. They have buildings full of programmers, we have one, plus a handful part-time-ish helpers.

So can we all just... Chill? Everything will be fine, and in the future, all these suggestions become possible. Newsfeeds, suggestion blocks, announcement pages, an all-new freaking WEBSITE... It's coming. Be patient.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 05 Feb 2016, 20:39

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-05T19:56:51+02:00

Blackheart wrote:
beta testing is just not attractive - its insanely annoying to write proper reports that coders understand and also intensely boring. To add to that of course actually testing and finding bugs. For some stuff you also need quite some people, e.g. joining/hosting games and such.

so why should you help testing? the changes done are not visible to the normal players eye - he just sees the current, working system get raped and is unhappy and unsatisfied with it, regardless if the code is now 10 times cleaner or not. adding to that, the testers get 0 attention or anything (just like the coders but they have the power to change everything so are not allowed to complain ). E.g. our good old friend ZLO has found how many bugs? 10 billion? what did he get for it so far? some complaints that his bug reports were not in the best fashion possible. No avatar, no nothing. That is the reason why nobody is testing - its frustrating and the only thing you get out of it is some small sense of happiness that you helped improving the client, even if you dont see it. for most that is not enough. Thanks!

okay that's a fair point.

I'm now thinking of making a tester's avatar.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 05 Feb 2016, 19:56

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-04T18:06:25+02:00

The things some people in Aeolus chat were writing to visionik and Sheeo were just plain annoying... I saw visionik write "next person to do nothing but complain gets banned" and was amazed. Please do this because we don't need people who do that.

It's time to stop pretending that FAF should have some professional manner where people are treated as equals and you will get "fired" if you eviscerate them. There are plenty of hateful or immature people here who just are not worth the time and effort.

Visionik, Zock, Sheeo, etc: Take notes on the people who give good feedback or are motivated and intelligent enough to do something good for the community. Give them recognition whether it's a special avatar (it's amazing what people are willing to do for that), priority on opinion, etc, etc.

As for beta testing, I think when Zock was hosting several beta balance patch games a day I had more fun than I had ever had previously. You need a reputable person to host games to get people motivated to test things out. That made me happy that Zock did that.

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 04 Feb 2016, 18:06

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-04T16:38:02+02:00

maybe im a bit too critical here but i think that communication in faf has always been ... well.. a shambles really :/

ive touched this topic in the past a couple of times but maybe peoples experience will help highlight what ive been getting at:

the communication channels we do have are not organized, and a lot of them are not very accessible or well known, and not interlinked that much either.

there needs to be more organization because right now things like the channel topic and whats new are just full of all sorts of info, that most people dont really need or want to know.

for example tournaments for top 1v1 players in whats new - it might make sense to put it there but 80% of faf is not even going to consider joining - that information is lost on them. a tournament specific new thing in the tournaments tab would go along way i think - you would look for tourneys there instead of stumbling upon them in whats new.

important info like client patches and announcements need their own channel - the channel topic may work for that, but its been used to advertise everything else as well. Such use diminishes the "quality" of the channel and makes people ignore it most of the time - this is evident because of how many people (dont) read whats new or the chat topic.
i suggest adding a new notification bar at the top of the client (theres a nice space in between the menu and the "forged alliance forever" text) which is 95% of the time empty. that way only important announcements get noticed there because they are not usual.

finally whats new page needs a remake. right now it contains way too much clutter (a dl link to the client? really?) - we are showing a webpage for something that should be more of an information panel. as such it makes sense to disconnect the website from the client, but a redesign of that page would work too.
its safe to say that the current blog method is not very effective. if the news is sorted into types and provided in a nicer way with less clutter and more useful info, people will read it more, instead of switching tabs as soon as chat loads.

i have a little experience in design but not much else so my input would be mostly graphical here.

anyway hope this helps

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 04 Feb 2016, 16:38

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-04T15:26:56+02:00

Thanks for the picture there Swol. That's another point, the channel topic isn't great for this kind of thing. Four separate points buried into a single message. It detracts from the importance of all of them. There is too much information crammed into that one small point. If you look at a newspaper there is a single headline to grab attention. I think the same principle should be applied to the channel topic. Decide what's important and stick it in the channel topic. Don't overcrowd it.

The kind of vibe I get from reading that is

Point 1: Don't need it. (Eyes begins glazing)
Point 2: There's a link (Wary about clicking it)
Point 3: More stuff unrelated to me (Bored)
Point 4: How does this warrant a mention? (Annoyed)

At least that's what I remember when this was up. I skimmed that to see if there was anything interesting. But the two messages about something I never needed about the time put a negative spin on it and that Star Wars message which remained up there for ages got more attention than anything else (I was a bit annoyed with it). And if you don't change it often people aren't going to read it again. They think they've already gotten everything they need from it. Especially when it's a dry humorless stick. How many textbooks have you gone back to read if it wasn't interesting or funny? Or you had to.

Statistics: Posted by Comrade_Shamrock — 04 Feb 2016, 15:26

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-04T02:55:34+02:00

I knew I could test out beta client/server ages ago. But i didn't beyond logging on because...no one to play with. But i didn't get butthurt when the shit hit the fan today. There are people giving up a hell of a lot of their time and effort to not only continue this small community but try and make it better. They could spend all their time in a futile attempt to try and get people to test things out or they can just crack on with it (i'm not suggesting anyone here is unappreciative). I don't contribute anything to this community beyond playing, i suspect i'm not the only one. So if the carriers of this community want to crack on with trying to improve it and hit a few hiccups on the way then there is no butthurt coming from me. I've seen bigger butthurt in aeolus over not being able to play FAF for a couple of hours than when banks cock up and you can't access your account for a week.

This was over aeolus since before people knew [SPOILER REMOVED].

beta.png

TLDR: 10/10 event, i hope to see people being as butthurt in the futher rather than helping, watching a film, reading a book or going out and getting drunk.

Time to get crucified.

Statistics: Posted by Mel_Gibson — 04 Feb 2016, 02:55

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-04T01:57:17+02:00

My main problem with the whole process was actually how little was said about the scheduled client update.

I read the post on "What's New" a couple of days ago, which explained all the changes on the server and a future client update.
But that is the strange part: they said we could expect it soon. Which to me didn't mean that it would be part of "Everything else".

Since all the server changes didn't seem to have a huge impact on the users, I expected the same from changes to "Everything else".
But instead they push for a client update with a lot of problems.

Wouldn't it have been better if they actually mentioned the client update and expected problems so people who where unwilling to take part of the early testing could just not show up today?

I'm happy that the progress is made, but the communication wasn't as good as it could have been.

Statistics: Posted by KeyBlue — 04 Feb 2016, 01:57

Re: Communication is Awkward

2016-02-04T01:14:58+02:00

Blackheart:

Fair enough. It's not a great system, but it might be less awkward. Oh well. What's done is done. If people don't want to do it, may as well force em.

Blodir:

Are the testers provided guidelines or even a list of what to check? I mean if they aren't they're going to check what comes to mind which will probably be just games or maybe replays.

Statistics: Posted by Comrade_Shamrock — 04 Feb 2016, 01:14